Import export and HH metering

[Princess Pooper]

New HH SMART meter installed on farm March 2015 owned by us maintained by WPD.
Put in because we were upgrading to 3 phase and also installing E3120 turbine. New milking parlour went in within a month.

Turbine installed Sept 2015 and paid for export by energy purchaser on basis of export data as collated by STARK. Pattern of export HH data seems logical - higher on windy days and non existent on calm days, with variations according to our assumed peak usage - milking, water heating etc. Separate generation meter at the base of turbine. Difference in readings = amount of elec used on farm. We buy elec from one company and sell to another.

Import meter (same physical piece of kit, different MPAN) upgraded to HH metering 01/01/17 and it is only since then - and then only since we asked for it - that we have had the spreadsheets sent to us but we do go through a buying group and turns out they can access this data right back to when the new meter went in,.

Turbine was down at time and re-started after repairs (won't bore you with the details) 20/04. Since then it has been largely windy until today and according to our export HH data we exported every HH on some of the consistently breezy days, with peak exports 700-800 kw/day on a few days between 21/04 and 08/05.

Just had our HH import data through and shows no difference whatsoever in import usage or daily from when turbine shut down (prior to 21/04) and since, despite the export pattern above.


I started looking carefully into this because I was disappointed that our elec bills had actually gone up since turbine came onstream in 2015, but as we had a new parlour which needs more hot water etc we couldn't really compare with the data prior to March/April 2015 when the new meter and the new parlour went in.

We are obviously exporting Ok because we are being paid for it but it seems as though the import meter is recording total elec usage rather than total elec import from grid.

Help!

It is being looked into but has anyone else had a similar issue? So many players involved but is it likely to be a metering issue? Can it even be a 'not wired up properly' issue? Advise you all to check your smart meters very carefully !!!! If you are in a buying group, insist on seeing your HH data.

 

[e3120]

Your analysis sounds sensible. I would expect little/no import in half-hourly periods where you're exporting. Even if your usage is 'lumpy' across the phases, and one phase is actually using more than the gen, I'm reliably told that this won't appear as simultaneous import & export (with consequencial financial loss).

Yes wiring up/configuration could be wrong. Is your 'import' figure in HHs that you're exporting close/equal to the export figure? It's also possible that it's wrong on 1 or more phase, then the import might be 1/3 or 2/3 of the export on export-only HHs. Also is the export correct? If you can target a period when your usage is low and generation smoothish, then you could try to compare Eric historic figures to your HH export info. Be careful because Eric's time synchronisation (&zone?) is a bit vague. Nonetheless, I'd expect you'd have spotted if the export was suspect since the turbine was installed.

I did have a contact for a techy bloke at WPD who sorted pulsed output from the meter for me - I could try to find it if it would help. Out of interest, why did you change to HH import?

 

[Princess Pooper]

Your analysis sounds sensible. I would expect little/no import in half-hourly periods where you're exporting. Even if your usage is 'lumpy' across the phases, and one phase is actually using more than the gen, I'm reliably told that this won't appear as simultaneous import & export (with consequencial financial loss).

Yes wiring up/configuration could be wrong. Is your 'import' figure in HHs that you're exporting close/equal to the export figure? It's also possible that it's wrong on 1 or more phase, then the import might be 1/3 or 2/3 of the export on export-only HHs. Also is the export correct? If you can target a period when your usage is low and generation smoothish, then you could try to compare Eric historic figures to your HH export info. Be careful because Eric's time synchronisation (&zone?) is a bit vague. Nonetheless, I'd expect you'd have spotted if the export was suspect since the turbine was installed.

I did have a contact for a techy bloke at WPD who sorted pulsed output from the meter for me - I could try to find it if it would help. Out of interest, why did you change to HH import?

Thanks for the teccie information, our buying group are taking it forward with the supplier who I expect are already talking to WPD about their metering., There is definitely something 'up' because we had a visit from our supplier yesterday saying they were not getting our import data through.so thought the router or sim might be faulty - but then when I contacted our buying group they had the data right up to date on the HH spreadsheets!!!

Import shows very little fluctuation, from 1.5kW per HH at midnight when just a couple of lights on and computers on standby to say 4 kW when we might have parlour and water heaters on (it is a variable speed vacuum pump which is one reason we were so disappointed that our elec usage seemed to have gone up rather than down after fitting it, which coincided roughly with the new meter. Export HH varies from 0 to 70 (Storm Barbara in 2016) which then became an overspeed but that's another story).

We are as happy as we can be that export is correct. It seems to match our observations of windspeeds and live ERIC feed (oooooh ERIC says 5 min average is 50kw/h .....cross checked later with STARK gives a similar export figure). We don't rely on ERIC for accurate cumulative generation because as you say, it is not 100% accurate (ERIC cumulative generation figure was 3% higher than our generation meter as at end of April). WPD have been out a couple of times since installation to check their meter - they did say it had a fault at one point but that was several months ago. They are spending a lot of time out here because of network issues, several outages and one morning a phase wire blew on the new 100kw transformer. They came back a month or so later and altered the settings on the transformer as they said the supply was overvoltage (neighbours new lights had also been blowing). We have a planned outage next month they are inspecting the whole line next month they are obviously not happy with it. Not sure if any of this could affect our meter???? Really annoying when 2-3 short outages on the same day shut the turbine down for longer periods due to utility fault, losing generation. Several outages last autumn were when the turbine was shut down long term so certainly nothing to do with it.

Changed to HH import as we had to under P272 and given new MPAN due to our transformer capacity (needed because of export rather than import).

 

[Exfarmer]

PP there are several issues which may be the problem.
Firstly is your farm basically single phase ( for historic reasons )
This could mean you are importing while exporting.
How big is your turbine?
The other factor could be the inverters may be channeling the power into the phases you are not using.
You say there have been issues of overvoltage, this may be caused by your turbine and should have been sorted by the DNO when they gave permission for the turbine install

 

[Princess Pooper]

We are looking into the use of the phases our side of the meter because yes you are correct we went from single to three phase so might be very uneven usage. There was some internal rewiring done after the new meter was fitted so might have balanced it off but we need to check with our electrician about this. .

It is an E3120 rated 50Kw but will operate to 80. WPD transformer is 100kW and was installed with a public line upgrade in March 2015 and with WPD knowing that the turbine was coming onstream that year. We are at the end of the line apart from 2 other houses.

Overvoltage - obviously we had our G59 tests observed at commissioning in Sept 2015.

Don't know when the overvoltage started but we had some random shut downs in June 2016 so not exactly a windy time of year not sure what caused them other than it was utility faults but there was not a power outage. Turbine was then completely non-operational for other reasons between 3rd week in June 2016 and 3rd week April 2017. The transformer phase wire blowing occurred during this period, neighbour lights problem same time of year, as did WPD adjusting the transformer settings due to overvoltage. So the turbine was not operational at this point. So there are network problems unrelated to the turbine operation. We had one horrendous morning milking when they had a fault on another nearby line and we were undervoltage and the milk parlour computer kept shutting down due to tiny fluctuations resulting in all the units dropping off the cows every time - and this was between 6.30 and 8.30 am and on a milk recording day so we were not happy bunnies. (also during the time the turbine was out of action).

Our buying group are sure there is something strange about the meter though as they said there was one day in Nov 2016 when we apparently imported no power at all, but this was when turbine was shut down and although we have had these outages and gone on the tractor generator for milking it has never been a 24 hour outage.

 

[Exfarmer]

Sometimes no apparent movement of electricity can be down to the outside metering company, not WPD but whoever reports the readings, losing contact with the meter.
This reporting will be done by the use of a sim card in your meter using a local mobile network. Anyone can access these meters with the sim card number and the passcode.
This should show up as a large blip the next day.
I have though more than once noticed odd readings, which nobody can really explain.
I believe there is kit which can be simply clamped to the cables which will measure energy flow and would be worth trying to see what is happening.
It is of course possible even in a fully balanced system that power will be flowing both ways within a HH period (30 minutes) due to surges in load with motors starting etc and wind speed changing.
I have no experience of running turbines though. Certainly the output of a PV system can change by 50 % in a few seconds when a cloud goes past

 

[upnortheast]

I believe there is kit which can be simply clamped to the cables

Your Electrician will have a clamp meter that display how many amps are going through the cable. Clever versions are available that record & store what is happening over a period of time then download the info onto your `puter

 

[Princess Pooper]

Your Electrician will have a clamp meter that display how many amps are going through the cable. Clever versions are available that record & store what is happening over a period of time then download the info onto your `puter

Yes our sparky has just been out and said if we need to take it further then this is what he will do. However, he has confirmed that the parlour is on three phase and most other stuff including the bulk tank and hot water tanks and house. on single. We only use about 32,000 Kwh per year, we are not big users for a dairy farm and even in the house we are on oil Aga for cooking and water heating.

With no changes in our typical pattern of usage, we can detect no difference at all in ave daily import when turbine was not running and when turbine was exporting in every HH section so it will be interesting to see what the next development is. By producing an average daily curve of the month before the turbine was back on and the couple of windy weeks since it was back on, both the pattern of use (shape of curve) over 24 hrs and typical total of import Kwh is about the same.

Question - when looking at a half hourly spreadsheet if a half hour cell says say 4.00 is that half an hour at 4kw/hr or is it 4 kwh in the half hour (ie if it carried on at same rate it would be 8kw/hr)? What I am getting at is if I tot up the total of all half hourly cells (48 of them for a day) does that give me a ballpark daily import? (sorry being a bit thick)

 

[Exfarmer]

Yes the HH is the total production in that HH.
I would expect you get them in an Excel spreadsheet with about 1400 entries 24 X 2 X days of the month.
it is very easy to work out daily or monthly figures

 

[Princess Pooper]

Yes the HH is the total production in that HH.
I would expect you get them in an Excel spreadsheet with about 1400 entries 24 X 2 X days of the month.
it is very easy to work out daily or monthly figures

Yes we get our export ones every month with our remittance. We have only started getting our import ones since the new MPAN and HH metering from Jan, which, along with the turbine re-starting in April, is why I am only just able to look at these patterns, although the capability was there all the time and it appears that our buying group can access them back to when the meter was fitted. I've been looking at demand patterns during the day and also variation day to day by charting the import data (already charted by STARK for export).

 

[e3120]

....I am the person with her fingers in the wall socket....

....I will leave it there for now.

Please do.

 

[Exfarmer]

So called renewable energy is just on big con. If your a farmer with a small basic model it might provide as small benifit.

However in 2002 the government closed Radiocommunications agency and BT's equivalent. So it could get in new technology.
I was at school in 1970 our physics teacher told us wind turbines were not power efficient.

A transformer was used to convert DC to AC
power. Then later along with air conditioning systems the transformer was removed and replaced with with an inverter.

The inverter was thought to be the same as a transformer. However it is a low frequency generator. A smaller transformer was used to
guard the mains supply to generate more energy. Then later the transformers were even removed and down graded to make even more power. This results are power augers in the mains. The so called experts think by building bigger networks this will stop these power surges.

Inverters are known by a number of different names. Opposed to the energy being read from the North polarity it's read from the South polarity.

South polarity is caused by running the power or Motor backwards.
Even the military double blinded themselves
misreading the sine wave in the North rather from the South. They though inverter stepped up or stepped down.

Malcolm Howard Mod Trained told me that inverters were known for sick building syndrome. He worked for Radiocommunications I spoke before they closed. They used to measure the mains supply below 20 Hz so I was told by a lines man on East Midlands electricity (central Network)
Civilian science believes energy below 20Hz
is low energy. But the transference between
what the military and nuclear science know is not the case. Weak forces or low level radiation got muddled up.
Wind Turbines produce Nuclear or Low level radiation. The wind turbine is not even need.
Just the inverter.

But it still causes power surges in the mains I wrote to central networks they said it's the governments fault.

Smart meters are just like having a mobile transmitter in your home it has the same problems.

The Mod in the 50/60s knew radiation would kill benifical insects.
From that Tick and cockroachs and similar creatures these will in habit the earth.
This will be the end of us all.
Tick population is up that's linked to Lyme Disease.

The government has sold new technology and ignored the true radiation levels.
Which are huge.
It's like using a noise meter to measure a wall socket.

I am the person with her fingers in the wall socket.
The expert stands there remotely with a noise meter trying to tell me that the radiation is only low level and within limits.

I will leave it there for now.

How sad can one get? You need help!

 

[Old earwig]

Your Electrician will have a clamp meter that display how many amps are going through the cable. Clever versions are available that record & store what is happening over a period of time then download the info onto your `puter

A clip on meter like that will not identify power factor well to id if its import or export

 

[Old earwig]

PP what is your meter make and model/
We have an Elster from Western and just have HH on the export, its been ok for 5 years.
These meters can hold data for >100 days so a drop out in mobile signal will not screw things up.
I was concerned about importing more on one phase and was told that the record is the average so if you are running at 30 amps on each phase ( 90 total) and then pull 40 on one phase so it is -10 amps then you will still be seen as exporting 50 amps (30+30-10). That may be depending on the way the meter is programmed.

You could ask for a check meter to be installed and that would use clip on current transformers and voltage pick offs from the DNO's supply. It should then track the system and allow a comparison with your "normal" meter.
We only have HH on the export because having it import was going to cost ~£2.90/ day.



There are plenty of power meters around that could do the job for you but they cost. An example would be
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-power-meters/8417765/

This sort of thing at RS

LDP think you need to get your facts sorted a bit. Radcom is now part of Ofcom and functions well. Looks like you need to find out the difference between electromagnetic (EM) and ionizing radiation. There is an overlap to some extend in that EM radiation does become ionizing at very short wavelength (~ 5nm or 60Phz frequency). Going the other way you could at a stretch consider beta radiation as being both ionizing nuclear that it is and at the same time EM radiation as its actually electron flow... but then that's the beauty of wave particle duality!
I'm sure you would agree.

 

[Exfarmer]

PP what is your meter make and model/
We have an Elster from Western and just have HH on the export, its been ok for 5 years.
These meters can hold data for >100 days so a drop out in mobile signal will not screw things up.
I was concerned about importing more on one phase and was told that the record is the average so if you are running at 30 amps on each phase ( 90 total) and then pull 40 on one phase so it is -10 amps then you will still be seen as exporting 50 amps (30+30-10). That may be depending on the way the meter is programmed.

You could ask for a check meter to be installed and that would use clip on current transformers and voltage pick offs from the DNO's supply. It should then track the system and allow a comparison with your "normal" meter.
We only have HH on the export because having it import was going to cost ~£2.90/ day.



There are plenty of power meters around that could do the job for you but they cost. An example would be
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-power-meters/8417765/

This sort of thing at RS

LDP think you need to get your facts sorted a bit. Radcom is now part of Ofcom and functions well. Looks like you need to find out the difference between electromagnetic (EM) and ionizing radiation. There is an overlap to some extend in that EM radiation does become ionizing at very short wavelength (~ 5nm or 60Phz frequency). Going the other way you could at a stretch consider beta radiation as being both ionizing nuclear that it is and at the same time EM radiation as its actually electron flow... but then that's the beauty of wave particle duality!
I'm sure you would agree.

I am not sure you are correct about the averaging across the phases.
I understood it is all about current flow, positive flow, ie. import will generate a credit to the import and negative flow the same to the export. I am unaware of any averaging and do not think it could work that way neither physically or legally.

 

[Princess Pooper]

PP what is your meter make and model/
We have an Elster from Western and just have HH on the export, its been ok for 5 years.
These meters can hold data for >100 days so a drop out in mobile signal will not screw things up.
I was concerned about importing more on one phase and was told that the record is the average so if you are running at 30 amps on each phase ( 90 total) and then pull 40 on one phase so it is -10 amps then you will still be seen as exporting 50 amps (30+30-10). That may be depending on the way the meter is programmed.

You could ask for a check meter to be installed and that would use clip on current transformers and voltage pick offs from the DNO's supply. It should then track the system and allow a comparison with your "normal" meter.
We only have HH on the export because having it import was going to cost ~£2.90/ day.



There are plenty of power meters around that could do the job for you but they cost. An example would be
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-power-meters/8417765/

This sort of thing at RS

LDP think you need to get your facts sorted a bit. Radcom is now part of Ofcom and functions well. Looks like you need to find out the difference between electromagnetic (EM) and ionizing radiation. There is an overlap to some extend in that EM radiation does become ionizing at very short wavelength (~ 5nm or 60Phz frequency). Going the other way you could at a stretch consider beta radiation as being both ionizing nuclear that it is and at the same time EM radiation as its actually electron flow... but then that's the beauty of wave particle duality!
I'm sure you would agree.

Ours is also an Elster A1700. We had export HH from the start. Import was read remotely but we did not get any HH data. Then we had the letter saying that under the P272 regs due to our transformer capacity, we would be renumbered and we now have an 05 MPAN. This was activiated 01/01/17 and we were billed using HH metering. We only got the import HH spreadsheets when we asked our buying group for them, but it appears that they can access them from before 01/01/17.

Right from when the new meter was fitted (6 months pre-turbine) we were surprised because our pattern of usage seemed to change - historically we have always used more night than day rate because our dairy water heaters are mainly on night rate and some of the morning milking is as well. This seemed to change after the new meter was fitted but we were aware that we were using more hot water as the new parlour was fitted at the same time, so more is now heated on day rate. Once we got the HH import data this was the sort of thing I was looking into to see if time clocks were set correctly etc but looking into the data highlighted the fact that since the turbine has been re-started it has made no apparent difference to our import at all, despite exporting every HH for 24 hrs on some days..I appreciate that there are fluctuations in exact export and import all the time, but for there to be no discernible difference on windy and non windy days there is something wrong. We are expecting the next move will be a visit from WPD metering and if nothing seems to be happening, will start chasing.

 

[Old earwig]

I am not sure you are correct about the averaging across the phases.
I understood it is all about current flow, positive flow, ie. import will generate a credit to the import and negative flow the same to the export. I am unaware of any averaging and do not think it could work that way neither physically or legally.

I quite agree about the legal bit and that is why I went to the metering techs at Western Power and they said the meter is just dead simple and averages the phases on current and PF.
In the past I have used proper energy monitors on turbines and that can if you want, record down to fraction of a second on each phase. You should see the junk wave form coming off a downwind turbine each time a blade passes the tower!

 

[Old earwig]

Ours is also an Elster A1700. We had export HH from the start. Import was read remotely but we did not get any HH data. Then we had the letter saying that under the P272 regs due to our transformer capacity, we would be renumbered and we now have an 05 MPAN. This was activiated 01/01/17 and we were billed using HH metering. We only got the import HH spreadsheets when we asked our buying group for them, but it appears that they can access them from before 01/01/17.

Right from when the new meter was fitted (6 months pre-turbine) we were surprised because our pattern of usage seemed to change - historically we have always used more night than day rate because our dairy water heaters are mainly on night rate and some of the morning milking is as well. This seemed to change after the new meter was fitted but we were aware that we were using more hot water as the new parlour was fitted at the same time, so more is now heated on day rate. Once we got the HH import data this was the sort of thing I was looking into to see if time clocks were set correctly etc but looking into the data highlighted the fact that since the turbine has been re-started it has made no apparent difference to our import at all, despite exporting every HH for 24 hrs on some days..I appreciate that there are fluctuations in exact export and import all the time, but for there to be no discernible difference on windy and non windy days there is something wrong. We are expecting the next move will be a visit from WPD metering and if nothing seems to be happening, will start chasing.

What is your import peak requirement? Do you really need to be class 5?
We went up from a 50 kva tranny to 100 but had the import side set at 20 because we do not need any more. We are retired and the only power we used to use was for an electric fence so we were on a domestic rating. When the Tranny was increased we were given 2 new MPANs from SP and they insisted that we go on HH for both. Our first fit agent was Ecotricity and they were VERY helpful and managed to get our import down to class 4 and that cost us a lot less.


The only reason we are a business import is because of the turbine which has used just 3100kw in 5 years. Our old mpan was closed down and the old meter removered and all was well on that side .. till we had a meter reader come from SP over 2 years later!

Hope that they can sort this for you when they come and look at the meter(s?). I would ask for a monitoring meter set up to be put in to check it.

Ofgem seem to screw everything. When I have called them for help they say "we do not know, they keep changing it!"
The other side of the coin..I know people in the USA that still export on a net tariff system. An old spinning meter that goes backwards when you export and at the end of the month it gets read and you get paid something like half for what you export to import. Simple and it works.

 

[e3120]

What is your import peak requirement? Do you really need to be class 5?
We went up from a 50 kva tranny to 100 but had the import side set at 20 because we do not need any more. We are retired and the only power we used to use was for an electric fence so we were on a domestic rating. When the Tranny was increased we were given 2 new MPANs from SP and they insisted that we go on HH for both. Our first fit agent was Ecotricity and they were VERY helpful and managed to get our import down to class 4 and that cost us a lot less.


The only reason we are a business import is because of the turbine which has used just 3100kw in 5 years. Our old mpan was closed down and the old meter removered and all was well on that side .. till we had a meter reader come from SP over 2 years later!

Hope that they can sort this for you when they come and look at the meter(s?). I would ask for a monitoring meter set up to be put in to check it.

Ofgem seem to screw everything. When I have called them for help they say "we do not know, they keep changing it!"
The other side of the coin..I know people in the USA that still export on a net tariff system. An old spinning meter that goes backwards when you export and at the end of the month it gets read and you get paid something like half for what you export to import. Simple and it works.

Very, very similar here, based on good advice on BFF (you didn't have a HL username there?). I also got 2 '06' new MPANs but argued with SP and they have supposedly set the import as an 02 in the background, which must be why I've heard nothing of P272. But I still officially have an 06 MPAN which makes it very difficult to get sensible import quotes.

I also queried about importing on one phase whilst exporting on another. The guru at WPD metering said:

"The measurement chip in the meter calculates the total import or export power. The total energy flow will only ever be in one direction.
The meter can and does record import and export in one half hour time period but one is usually greater than the other – if the generation and demand was perfectly balance the meter would not advance on either the import or export registers.
The meter does record the individual line currents and I guess you could see the current flow “importing” on one phase and “exporting” on another but the net effect will always be in one direction or the other."

 

[Old earwig]

Very, very similar here, based on good advice on BFF (you didn't have a HL username there?). I also got 2 '06' new MPANs but argued with SP and they have supposedly set the import as an 02 in the background, which must be why I've heard nothing of P272. But I still officially have an 06 MPAN which makes it very difficult to get sensible import quotes.

I also queried about importing on one phase whilst exporting on another. The guru at WPD metering said:

"The measurement chip in the meter calculates the total import or export power. The total energy flow will only ever be in one direction.
The meter can and does record import and export in one half hour time period but one is usually greater than the other – if the generation and demand was perfectly balance the meter would not advance on either the import or export registers.
The meter does record the individual line currents and I guess you could see the current flow “importing” on one phase and “exporting” on another but the net effect will always be in one direction or the other."

Thanks, that's what I was told but you have laid it out more clearly!
I wonder if we could shift to 02 on the import side, problem is we use about 600kw/year kick starting the turbine. I have tried to find out if a 01 or 02 can use any power for non domestic but had no success.