"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[som farmer]

the banning of deer hunting with dogs, led to widescale shooting/poaching of red deer, on exmoor, hunting, actually managed the population, no hunting, meant farmers etc, were no longer prepared to put up, with the damage deer did. And who could blame them, herds of 50+ do an awful lot of damage to crops.
ps, l don't hunt, and have no intention to do so, if someone thinks l have a bias.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

We had at least 300 reds on a rape paddock destined for our organic dairy herd, they do eat

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Here's a small-scale rewilding project - remember I did some ploughing to smooth out an old track? This is what grew

 

[Kiwi Pete]

What grew is surprisingly "different" to what was growing, you can see the difference in pasture that's been subject to management when it's beside grass that's "just happened to grow" on bare soil, the fertility aspect definitely makes for bigger leafier plants.
However all that rugged ryegrass and thistle will make great future fertility, it's a start and it cost less to have an experimental strip than a bag of cheap seed, as I think contents of the seedbank would have overgrown it anyway.

 

[hendrebc]

Rifles are why we don't have very many deer here now. We used to see mobs of 50+, they'd reduce the woodland floor to bare ground. Now the most we get is six or seven in a group and they tend to keep on the move

That's just want natural predators would do though thin them out and keep them on the move. Sounds like human predators are doing a good job.

 

[martian]

Nice little programme on the wireless this afternoon

BBC Radio 4 - Could I Regenerate My Farm to Save the Planet?

James Rebanks examines regenerative farming and if it could work on his Lake District farm

www.bbc.co.uk

Flattered to share a billing with Greg Judy!

 

[som farmer]

l was asked a question today, re beef breeds on our dairy.
with the expected response to sky high fert prices, would dairy farmers, be better off using beef breeds, that can/will fatten off grass, rather than conts, that will not.
We are using AA and Hfrd this autumn, mainly for ease of calving, but l hadn't really looked at it, from that angle, from the better efficiency angle yes, but not from increased demand, due to high N, and probably considerably higher, conc/grain prices.
Knowing many have a love of cont bulls, it was an interesting question, and thought provoking.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

l was asked a question today, re beef breeds on our dairy.
with the expected response to sky high fert prices, would dairy farmers, be better off using beef breeds, that can/will fatten off grass, rather than conts, that will not.
We are using AA and Hfrd this autumn, mainly for ease of calving, but l hadn't really looked at it, from that angle, from the better efficiency angle yes, but not from increased demand, due to high N, and probably considerably higher, conc/grain prices.
Knowing many have a love of cont bulls, it was an interesting question, and thought provoking.

It's likely that you can create a workable population starting with anything, I don't see much wrong with continentals in our system - other than they may have been bred for a much different system, one where the environment is bent to keep the cow, as opposed to forcing cows to adapt to the environment

 

[som farmer]

It's likely that you can create a workable population starting with anything, I don't see much wrong with continentals in our system - other than they may have been bred for a much different system, one where the environment is bent to keep the cow, as opposed to forcing cows to adapt to the environment

l would imagine few conts fatten off grass alone, grain at the moment, is rapidly rising in price, so that has to be put in the equation. Let alone the carbon foot print, grass ve grain.
Bought a hereford bull last week, just over 700 kg, 19 months old, and cheap at £1110, and l note from the mkt report, a pen of 10 month here steers, topped at £1038, the relevance of the two prices, the latter being very high, is that people put the cost of rearing a dairy replacement, at between £1200 and £1800, the two do not seem to equate out the end cost, if a suck calf, that will add to rearing beef.
Quite interesting to us, as we are only using beef, AA or Hfd this winter, we reckon we can swop beef stores, for fault free calved hfrs/cows. That might not be so good now, with the milk price looking as if it is going to escalate rapidly, arla at 36.69 for dec, ours, 31.5.
Interesting, and very unpredictable times ahead for us, l think. Add covid exploding again, with lock downs, and restrictions, the future is very unknown, who ever said farming was boring !!!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

l would imagine few conts fatten off grass alone, grain at the moment, is rapidly rising in price, so that has to be put in the equation. Let alone the carbon foot print, grass ve grain.
Bought a hereford bull last week, just over 700 kg, 19 months old, and cheap at £1110, and l note from the mkt report, a pen of 10 month here steers, topped at £1038, the relevance of the two prices, the latter being very high, is that people put the cost of rearing a dairy replacement, at between £1200 and £1800, the two do not seem to equate out the end cost, if a suck calf, that will add to rearing beef.
Quite interesting to us, as we are only using beef, AA or Hfd this winter, we reckon we can swop beef stores, for fault free calved hfrs/cows. That might not be so good now, with the milk price looking as if it is going to escalate rapidly, arla at 36.69 for dec, ours, 31.5.
Interesting, and very unpredictable times ahead for us, l think. Add covid exploding again, with lock downs, and restrictions, the future is very unknown, who ever said farming was boring !!!

Yeah, it's all about selectively breeding off individuals that work. It takes a bit of discipline, which usually takes a bit of freedom, which usually takes a bit of discipline!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

 

[Henarar]

l would imagine few conts fatten off grass alone, grain at the moment, is rapidly rising in price, so that has to be put in the equation. Let alone the carbon foot print, grass ve grain.
Bought a hereford bull last week, just over 700 kg, 19 months old, and cheap at £1110, and l note from the mkt report, a pen of 10 month here steers, topped at £1038, the relevance of the two prices, the latter being very high, is that people put the cost of rearing a dairy replacement, at between £1200 and £1800, the two do not seem to equate out the end cost, if a suck calf, that will add to rearing beef.
Quite interesting to us, as we are only using beef, AA or Hfd this winter, we reckon we can swop beef stores, for fault free calved hfrs/cows. That might not be so good now, with the milk price looking as if it is going to escalate rapidly, arla at 36.69 for dec, ours, 31.5.
Interesting, and very unpredictable times ahead for us, l think. Add covid exploding again, with lock downs, and restrictions, the future is very unknown, who ever said farming was boring !!!

The continental V native bit makes me laugh when one hell of a % of bullocks are cross breeds anyway

 

[Kiwi Pete]

The continental V native bit makes me laugh when one hell of a % of bullocks are cross breeds anyway

It's just another label

Most farms have their perfect type of stock already, the thing is that if you're looking for genetic advancement then it can take a while, but adaptation is probably quite a bit quicker and cheaper than "killing good cows" IYSWIM, just identify what your environment actually is like and then use animals that adapt to it

you'd think dairy calves would be soft moany wimps of things but we are just feeding the microbes in their gut at the end of the day. They will begin to adapt almost immediately, hence keeping the rotation long enough their feed is always "much the same" gives better results than always-changing-feed

 

[Treg]

l would imagine few conts fatten off grass alone, grain at the moment, is rapidly rising in price, so that has to be put in the equation. Let alone the carbon foot print, grass ve grain.
Bought a hereford bull last week, just over 700 kg, 19 months old, and cheap at £1110, and l note from the mkt report, a pen of 10 month here steers, topped at £1038, the relevance of the two prices, the latter being very high, is that people put the cost of rearing a dairy replacement, at between £1200 and £1800, the two do not seem to equate out the end cost, if a suck calf, that will add to rearing beef.
Quite interesting to us, as we are only using beef, AA or Hfd this winter, we reckon we can swop beef stores, for fault free calved hfrs/cows. That might not be so good now, with the milk price looking as if it is going to escalate rapidly, arla at 36.69 for dec, ours, 31.5.
Interesting, and very unpredictable times ahead for us, l think. Add covid exploding again, with lock downs, and restrictions, the future is very unknown, who ever said farming was boring !!!

As a native breed beef farmer I think I can say this with out being biased, petty much all breeds finish well of grass alone, its the system not the breed.
I use to buy Belgium Blues back in the 80s & several farmers said it will take some corn to finish them, they never seen any on this farm & finished very well.
@Henarar seems to manage quite well with blues on a grass system.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

As a native breed beef farmer I think I can say this with out being biased, petty much all breeds finish well of grass alone, its the system not the breed.
I use to buy Belgium Blues back in the 80s & several farmers said it will take some corn to finish them, they never seen any on this farm & finished very well.
@Henarar seems to manage quite well with blues on a grass system.

Alot of folk keep them here, too

the trap is getting into the "improved pasture system", for example giving things too much help, they adapt just as quickly to an easier life as a hard one.

Alot of farms here will use crops and conserved feed that is perfectly fine, but they would also be perfectly fine without those things - or there just wouldn't be cattle and sheep in the world, would there?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Just saw this, not a bad idea if you have trouble with these old things

be a good wee sideline

 

[som farmer]

Alot of folk keep them here, too

the trap is getting into the "improved pasture system", for example giving things too much help, they adapt just as quickly to an easier life as a hard one.

Alot of farms here will use crops and conserved feed that is perfectly fine, but they would also be perfectly fine without those things - or there just wouldn't be cattle and sheep in the world, would there?

obviously some get there conts to fatten off grass alone, l stand corrected.
but as KP says, you can get trapped into a system, and l would suspect many farmers corn their cattle, simply because that's what they always have done.
Which has the smallest carbon footprint though, and which provides the better return.
The question that started this line of thought, was directed at the rapidly rising cost of inputs, and what breed would provide the better return, due to that. Of course, these high prices may only be a temporary blip, but l have my doubts on that, l think we are moving into a period, where food production, and food required, are finely balanced, and probably have been, for a period of time, where any 'problem', upsets the supply chain, and causes a shortage, somewhere along the line, which effects price.
Returning to beef, one should look more at efficiency, rather than breed. We can all go along with a system, we think works for us, without 'challenging' it. The price of those hfrds has made me challenge it ! We are told, by the 'experts', the cost of rearing a dairy hfr to calve at 24 months, which is the most 'efficient' age to calve them, somewhere between £12-1800/head, and this week, you could buy 2 year old hfrs, at below £1200, or about the same price, as that hfrd bull, 19 months old, or even the same price, or less, than those 10 month hfrd steers, at £1038. It doesn't add up, regardless of system.
Systems, well, hmm, as many as there are farms, l suspect. The variance of systems, talked about, on this thread differ quite a lot, mainly by end use. However, the common theme is good management, we manage our swards, by planning, to get the best output, for us, or we could call it, efficiency, and efficiency, not complacency, should be the goal, we need/must aim for. And to me, increasing yield, with decreasing costs, by building soil fertility, looks a winner, from any angle you care to look at it.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Yeah, exactly. If it came to it, I'd rather haul concentrate out on my electric bike than feck about with lumps of water and tractors "because that would suit me better" and it would create less compaction here

if it causes more compaction somewhere else then maybe they can put the work in or ignore it or whatever suits them on that farm, that's why I try to stick with planned grazing as I see it as a possibility that reduces nearly all our risks to a minimum, while keeping our profit at a comfortable maximum - just add water

 

[som farmer]

water has long been earmarked as the cause for the next conflict. With the climate warming lot, that time, might be to close, for comfort, if, if, they are correct.
Farmers started housing cattle, because it was easier, and more convenient. Farmers began out wintering, again, for monetary reasons, the convenience factor, hasn't changed. Will it change back, now better prices are here ?
We have limited ground we can out winter on, the rest, we dare not, it simply pans, leading to a large reduction, in yield, the following season, not sure if 'herbs' roots, would reduce, that surface pan.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

It's likely that you can create a workable population starting with anything, I don't see much wrong with continentals in our system - other than they may have been bred for a much different system, one where the environment is bent to keep the cow, as opposed to forcing cows to adapt to the environment

The simmental and Fleckveigh(?) are supposed to be very milky?