"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
whatever the weather blows at us now, this marvellous autumn has shortened the winter, it's never quite so bad, when the evenings draw out.
Friend today told me he is on 35ppl base price 1st jan, and no doubt we will be very close to that, and @Kiwi Pete friends, milking, should be happy, highest NZ price for milk, ever !!!
The world might enter 2022, in a rather, shaky way, but food looks in demand, and that means good prices for us, which we deserve.
I predict we'll go into the new year in a much better economic climate than we'll have by the end of 2022, and beyond.. luckily we deal with China and the US as they have relatively robust economies and very different modes of operation
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
There's not heaps of litter, but plenty to do the job in our climate.
20211208_131710.jpg
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
I predict we'll go into the new year in a much better economic climate than we'll have by the end of 2022, and beyond.. luckily we deal with China and the US as they have relatively robust economies and very different modes of operation
l don't think you are quite right, china's massive global 'fund' everglades, has defaulted on it's loans, and a serious liquidity 'problem' has been announced. If they default in jan, they will go under, they have 27.5trillion borrowed. If they go, it will trigger a financial crash, greater than 2008. That, and a probable messy spat between Russia and Ukraine, Biden in la la land, good old mess.
However, it is only us, that can supply the food, they all need, and l am afraid to say, l no longer feel l have a duty to feed the world, might have been different, if we were appreciated, but the opposite is true. So good for farmers, terrible for guvs, expensive for consumers, but how will it impact on the 'climate change' movement.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Still struggling to get my head round doing that in spring, just looks like good silage grass! Autumn foggage ok, gives ground some cover/protection over winter etc. What's the thinking in spring?
tend to agree, it is an act of faith, and perhaps, depends on what stock you are grazing, we are dairy, and while 1st and 2nd rounds were ok, rain messed up 3rd, it bolted, and we were forced to pre mow. It is a very fine line between enough residual, and to much, and we think a better way, for dairy, is to match the stock, to the grasses growth curve, and make sure it's a on/off system.
What is interesting, in the grass photo's posted, there is not a lot of litter, under it, most has been mown/topped, at some point, in the grazing grass, only x1, the litter has 'gone', you cannot really see where the dung pats were, where you would assume less grazed, so more litter, or does 'younger' grass get 'absorbed' quicker ? Must admit our on/off grazing, slipped a bit this summer, not a lot, but nothing, other than by cows preference, was grazed tightly, we left longer residuals, than many would, but, other than the weather messing it about, mid summer, we kept good grass ahead of cows, and learnt a lot !
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Still struggling to get my head round doing that in spring, just looks like good silage grass! Autumn foggage ok, gives ground some cover/protection over winter etc. What's the thinking in spring?
--Silage + feeding silage + spreading manure is so you can feed animals all year round

--Planned grazing is so you can feed animals all year round and regenerate the land as you go
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
tend to agree, it is an act of faith, and perhaps, depends on what stock you are grazing, we are dairy, and while 1st and 2nd rounds were ok, rain messed up 3rd, it bolted, and we were forced to pre mow. It is a very fine line between enough residual, and to much, and we think a better way, for dairy, is to match the stock, to the grasses growth curve, and make sure it's a on/off system.
What is interesting, in the grass photo's posted, there is not a lot of litter, under it, most has been mown/topped, at some point, in the grazing grass, only x1, the litter has 'gone', you cannot really see where the dung pats were, where you would assume less grazed, so more litter, or does 'younger' grass get 'absorbed' quicker ? Must admit our on/off grazing, slipped a bit this summer, not a lot, but nothing, other than by cows preference, was grazed tightly, we left longer residuals, than many would, but, other than the weather messing it about, mid summer, we kept good grass ahead of cows, and learnt a lot !
If holistically planned grazing fails on dairy cows then the practicioner isn't making the right observations - it's that simple 🙂

I think one barrier is the myth that dairy cows can only do with pure leafy pasture, but of course that isn't the case, all ruminants consume the same: microbes, in order to survive - it's just the same as "transitioning" onto any other crop

however possibly another blindspot is that, for example, milking cows off forage crops -expensive crop, so there is ample consideration toward that transitioning period and also careful allocation

by contrast many pasture managers could simply put the cows in "rankish" pasture a few times, see the litres drop, drop more... and know that long grass=less milk in the tank.

(Permanent pasture is seen as "cheap" - it's often seen more as a surface to park stock on than "this is what grows here, we need to have it function as well as possible because all the other options aren't cost-effective")

And, that's it.. no real "shifting towards",, just a hit of bulky fibre, so it's a bit like us trying to eat grass 😅 there simply isn't enough of those microbes in their rumen, yet, nor maybe the capacity? Thus, it crashes the cow.

I think it's the "shifting towards" bit of that is important.
Bit less of this, bit more of that, a farmer has the luxury of breeding stock to suit the shift in paradigm - I just get what I'm given, and they're often pretty poor when they show up, and it all works brilliantly because stock are pretty incredible.

When you see the conditions many livestock survive in from a totally different perspective, you kinda cringe and go "wow,,, how did we ever think that was the way to go?" and "Why Would You Even Do That?" which is @holwellcourtfarm's bestselling novel, due out soon

Holistic management can not fail, it is an observational failure if things get worse over time
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
If holistically planned grazing fails on dairy cows then the practicioner isn't making the right observations - it's that simple 🙂

I think one barrier is the myth that dairy cows can only do with pure leafy pasture, but of course that isn't the case, all ruminants consume the same: microbes, in order to survive - it's just the same as "transitioning" onto any other crop

however possibly another blindspot is that, for example, milking cows off forage crops -expensive crop, so there is ample consideration toward that transitioning period and also careful allocation

by contrast many pasture managers could simply put the cows in "rankish" pasture a few times, see the litres drop, drop more... and know that long grass=less milk in the tank.

(Permanent pasture is seen as "cheap" - it's often seen more as a surface to park stock on than "this is what grows here, we need to have it function as well as possible because all the other options aren't cost-effective")

And, that's it.. no real "shifting towards",, just a hit of bulky fibre, so it's a bit like us trying to eat grass 😅 there simply isn't enough of those microbes in their rumen, yet, nor maybe the capacity? Thus, it crashes the cow.

I think it's the "shifting towards" bit of that is important.
Bit less of this, bit more of that, a farmer has the luxury of breeding stock to suit the shift in paradigm - I just get what I'm given, and they're often pretty poor when they show up, and it all works brilliantly because stock are pretty incredible.

When you see the conditions many livestock survive in from a totally different perspective, you kinda cringe and go "wow,,, how did we ever think that was the way to go?" and "Why Would You Even Do That?" which is @holwellcourtfarm's bestselling novel, due out soon

Holistic management can not fail, it is an observational failure if things get worse over time
not so much the leafy bit, but you get a lot of stem left, and it's that, which causes the problem, it doesn't seem to 'disappear', then the cows leave it, which makes the problem worse, next time, which is why l said it is difficult to manage, it's a very fine line, between to tight, and to much, not helped by variable weather. Which is why we have found 'stocking the grass' is a better way, for us. A timely topping, will still give a 'litter', perhaps not ideal, but we are still learning.
On p/p, l am quite certain it can be quite easily improved by management, you just need faith, perhaps lacking, in previous paragraph, the cost savings, and the carbon angle, in pp could be huge, reseeding costs a fortune, and sure we are often 'talked' into it, by reps, teaching, and tradition. We need to adjust management, to match.
There is now another angle to cope with, fuel and fert, which obviously going to cause some serious thinking. Which is why we are trialling a few different ideas, legumes d/d into p/p, offer an alternative to fert, but more importantly, increase the food value, of 1st cut, P/p versus ley grass, shows a big difference in silage analysis, and quality fodder, adds lots to the bottom line. There are many different types of legumes, and increasing them in the sward is a must, the drawback, is traditionally they don't produce for 1st cut, some do, so trying them, could be helpful. Not sure how regular over seeding p/p with an annual crop of a very early legume, should be classed as, not sure if it will prove worth doing, time will tell.
Going back to pp and it's food value, as silage, could well be we are not cutting it, at it's best time, there is still a lot to learn, but the days of milkers staying outside, all winter, are over, it is no longer practical to do, which immediately increases the importance of quality fodder.
We are moving forward, with yesterdays practices, which is making things rather awkward, but somewhere between the two, there should be a balance, which works. In theory, should be simple, we have tools, that were not available then, but it isn't. And yet we have to.
 

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
--Silage + feeding silage + spreading manure is so you can feed animals all year round

--Planned grazing is so you can feed animals all year round and regenerate the land as you go
Thought you might say something like that 🤯

Hellish difficult getting that stocking rate flexibility with a breeding enterprise, can see it with your contact grazing job.
 

Fenwick

Member
Location
Bretagne France
Oh, OK. These ones [that I am thinking of] actually aren't that big, probably 550kg or so, seems to be about where NZ cattle normally run to

of course all the breeders show you the big ones 😁

yeah it was just when you were talking about "native" breeds and I had a lightbulb moment, what about your own natives

Damn interesting to hear that they are smaller in NZ.

Our own natives, our split into two groups.

Groups one the world refers to as continentals. Like Lims or Charolais. These were historically small cattle, which have been 'improved', and are now energy hungry giants.

Group two are the little known breeds like the Amoricaine and the Bazardaise, Which look like ideal cattle. But there numbers have become so low that they have been through a genetic bottleneck, and that causes quite a few problems.

Then there is the Salers and the Aubrac which are a good compromise as they come from a region of the country where maize and cereals are hard to grow. So they haven't been too 'improved'. So, for the meanwhile, thats what I'm sticking with the Salers.

Funny thing is, if I go to a show (a rare event for me) I am stunned by the Salers cows there (around 1100 - 1200kgs). Mine are around 650, and I often think they are too buig.



Was listening to a podcast the other day. NZ consultant reckoned plantain is better than chicory for dairy. He thought chicory needs at least 40 days rest between grazings. @som farmer how is your plantain doing?

What is the advantage of 40 days rest for chicory?

Yeah, I haven't done yet. This might be more like 50kg/ha of lime flour, some fish hydrolysate, bit of seed. Probably won't happen but

I just pour a bag of hydrated lime in each of my dirty water pits

Not & keep it dry , don't really want to much as mixing at quite low rates.

I don't think lime flour would replace the hydrated lime. Isn't there a huge difference in solubility and available Ca?

I'm leaning towards the use of Hydrated lime too. But wow it is expensive here!


Great contact. How many feet per ha?

I'll get you some better photos if I get there at lunchtime.. I'm thinking 85% of the energy and 65% percent of the 'dry matter'

I like that answer!

There's not heaps of litter, but plenty to do the job in our climate.View attachment 1001996

Lovely!

Still struggling to get my head round doing that in spring, just looks like good silage grass! Autumn foggage ok, gives ground some cover/protection over winter etc. What's the thinking in spring?

--Silage + feeding silage + spreading manure is so you can feed animals all year round

--Planned grazing is so you can feed animals all year round and regenerate the land as you go

From what I have seen this year at ours, grazing like this in spring, gave more grass over summer, which gave more grass over autumn which gives more grass over winter.

not so much the leafy bit, but you get a lot of stem left, and it's that, which causes the problem, it doesn't seem to 'disappear', then the cows leave it, which makes the problem worse, next time, which is why l said it is difficult to manage

Why doesn't it disappear?

the days of milkers staying outside, all winter, are over, it is no longer practical to do,

I know of plenty of farmers converting back to it.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Thought you might say something like that 🤯

Hellish difficult getting that stocking rate flexibility with a breeding enterprise, can see it with your contact grazing job.
Flexibility is a lot easier to design into a business when you grasp how crucial it is to have it.

Hence the multipaddock system means we can keep adjusting the SR "at the coal face" even if the number of animals total stays pretty static across the year.
In a farming operation the actual number of animals might treble in the spring as one sheep turns to 3, and you can do something with that
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
the stem is what the cows leave, and it's still stemmy next time around, which they leave again, or it might be that the grass remained steady, through the dry spells, and ran to head once it rained, and then to much, all at the same stage. Probably manage it better another year,, but it's definitely where we lost the plot, and premowing, didn't do much either. Thinking about it, could be we were to cautious, after the previous years' of scarcity. It's a balance, and on balance, we might have got it wrong. We will see next year.
On keeping milkers out, all winter, herds are that much bigger, labour much lesser, and in all honesty, having milked cows out on kale till xmas, and rye from good friday, as a lad, l wouldn't do it again, nor would l expect a man, to do so. But fully realise, big savings to be had.
Total agreement on size of suckler cows, showing, just means the bigger is better syndrome.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
the stem is what the cows leave, and it's still stemmy next time around, which they leave again, or it might be that the grass remained steady, through the dry spells, and ran to head once it rained, and then to much, all at the same stage. Probably manage it better another year,, but it's definitely where we lost the plot, and premowing, didn't do much either. Thinking about it, could be we were to cautious, after the previous years' of scarcity. It's a balance, and on balance, we might have got it wrong. We will see next year.
On keeping milkers out, all winter, herds are that much bigger, labour much lesser, and in all honesty, having milked cows out on kale till xmas, and rye from good friday, as a lad, l wouldn't do it again, nor would l expect a man, to do so. But fully realise, big savings to be had.
Total agreement on size of suckler cows, showing, just means the bigger is better syndrome.
not everyone that shows cattle breeds [or feeds for that matter] for showing
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
not everyone that shows cattle breeds [or feeds for that matter] for showing
no they don't, and a good job too, pampered soft animals, do not necessarily perform the same, on a 'normal' farm. Always try to by bulls, either in their working clothes, or from a known source. Showing cattle, while l see a demand for it, it can also lead to unwelcome traits, in both cattle, and owners, jagerbomb, could be an example.
 

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