"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
IMG_0749[1].JPG

2nd cut r/clover ley, cut about 6 week ago, it even had some N, and slurry, thankfully its not all like this, but to much is. We had a really good 1st cut on this field, but its up the top of the farm, and is very dry ground.
IMG_0750[1].JPG

this is down the bottom of the farm, decent soil, and the cows hate the grass, as you can see, they prefer to eat, 10%, leave 10%, and trample 80%, just to rub it in, they huddle up, if its hot.
Its had seaweed, special min stuff, salt, reseeds, and nothing has altered, they still don't like it.
Put some fert on, added some clover seed, chicory and timothy 2/3 weeks ago, chicory and clover is growing fast, as you can see, wonder if they like that ! l doubt it though, but l will crack it one day, next field over, used to be the same, cows wouldn't it, cracked that one, but the same doesn't work here.
 

Jonny B88

Member
Location
ballykelly. NI
View attachment 1045636
2nd cut r/clover ley, cut about 6 week ago, it even had some N, and slurry, thankfully its not all like this, but to much is. We had a really good 1st cut on this field, but its up the top of the farm, and is very dry ground.View attachment 1045640
this is down the bottom of the farm, decent soil, and the cows hate the grass, as you can see, they prefer to eat, 10%, leave 10%, and trample 80%, just to rub it in, they huddle up, if its hot.
Its had seaweed, special min stuff, salt, reseeds, and nothing has altered, they still don't like it.
Put some fert on, added some clover seed, chicory and timothy 2/3 weeks ago, chicory and clover is growing fast, as you can see, wonder if they like that ! l doubt it though, but l will crack it one day, next field over, used to be the same, cows wouldn't it, cracked that one, but the same doesn't work here.
Perhaps you need to look at stockpiling early grass for now? Would do your grass and soil the world of good in those conditions. As @Gulli has said you either have too many mouths to feed or you need to adjust your rest periods in order to grow more grass. I know you often say how you need short high quality grazing for dairy stock, but it would be interesting to see milk tank fluctuations over a sustained period of say a few weeks grazing higher covers to see where it would settle.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
240 acres
120 dairy cows
62 hfrs, from i/c to 2/3 months
72 beef, nearly all under 6 months, including 26 not turned out.
20 acres maize
29 acres corn
all dry cows, 7,, all dairy hfrs, and 20 beef, on our away ground, the others on some poor ground here.
so not really pushing the stocking rate, we just fall apart july/aug, which we can sort of control, may/june, is simply to early to lose grass. Perhaps we should return to growing forage rape, for then, which we really want to avoid, it turns out as forest of fat hen.
in a good year, we could nearly double that, with fert, easily, except the good years, seem to get scarcer.
but as @Samcowman said, the ryegrass is great first round, then just looks great, till you get closer, and the reality is, there's no 'body' to it, and the cows go over it, last 7 acres, we grazed, lasted 2 feeds, and that had herbs in part, and bottom grass, as well, 28 day recovery period.
It sounds like you simply arrive at the end of the second grazing rotation too early for your rainfall pattern. I can see the advantages of autumn calving but it takes an awful lot of concessions and energy to shift all that feed "through time".

A lot of farmers around here have an ideal stocking plan for the growth curve - they keep a minimum over the winter and numbers basically triple over springtime - and still haul summer into winter with a tractor.

So I really get a feel for the world you're in, I was always amazed how winter-milking burned up grazing area - 17 cows over winter probably grazed 300 cows worth of potential grazing in the spring. - the m² allocation was just so huge for the litreage!

So I think that's where I would continue to look - that m² per 24 hr allocation, while your grass is growing.
Otherwise your acres just can't hold enough grass for your grazing demand, even if it is great stuff.
 
Last edited:

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
It sounds like you simply arrive at the end of the second grazing rotation too early for your rainfall pattern. I can see the advantages of autumn calving but it takes an awful lot of concessions and enery to shift all that feed "through time".

A lot of farmers around here have an ideal stocking plan for the growth curve - they keep a minimum over the winter and numbers basically triple over springtime - and still haul summer into winter with a tractor.

So I really get a feel for the world you're in, I was always amazed how winter-milking burned up grazing area - 17 cows over winter probably grazed 300 cows worth of potential grazing in the spring. - the m² allocation was just so huge for the litreage!

So I think that's where I would continue to look - that m² per 24 hr allocation, while your grass is growing.
Otherwise your acres just can't hold enough grass for your grazing demand, even if it is great stuff.
'Get big or get out' had a lot to answer for (good ol' Earl Butz, bless him) :rolleyes:
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
'Get big or get out' had a lot to answer for (good ol' Earl Butz, bless him) :rolleyes:
Getting big doesn't give much security either!

Takes a long time to turn those big ships around... we are looking at switching to autumn calving here but I am in no real rush.

It's almost like winter is a more predictable thing to work through than summer, we know pretty much how many weeks we'll grow SFA over winter but summer is a lottery.

I like to reduce variables to advance the quality of science
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Perhaps you need to look at stockpiling early grass for now? Would do your grass and soil the world of good in those conditions. As @Gulli has said you either have too many mouths to feed or you need to adjust your rest periods in order to grow more grass. I know you often say how you need short high quality grazing for dairy stock, but it would be interesting to see milk tank fluctuations over a sustained period of say a few weeks grazing higher covers to see where it would settle.
we are feeding 'stock pile', its second cut, r/clover ley, the much better, thankfully, part of the field, photographed, and lost 3 litres a cow, some of that, will be offset by higher F and P . bit extra cake in the parlour, to help them out. Funnily, they are perfectly happy on it, they eat the seed heads off the grass, red clover, and leave most of the stalk, and they have hay on offer, which they like.
The biggest loss/problem, is that milk cannot be 'recovered', to late in lactation. Looking back over the grazing, we had an excellent 1st grazing, we cut a fair bit, for silage, too much for the cows to get around to. We do 1st cut, in 2 parts, leys first, then our pp, that's at 'prime' a week, 10 days later, and we took more 2nd round grazing, and put it in the pit, again, there wasn't a chance the cows could get around to it. Then it came in dry, and fudged everything.

One major regen principle, that so obviously works, is ground cover, our, and neighbours corn, looks great, maize simply sucks the sun up. Our 'dry' problem, is exasperated by air flow, heat and wind, dry the ground out, where there is little cover, that is what we need to 'sort' out.

The next problem, is the how. We will bring calving back 2/3 weeks, that will cover a bit more of the crunch time, and fully utilise the early growth, planned, not ad hoc, and just leave as much ground for grazing, as we can, even if it is 2nd cut.

On our away block, completely different, different soil type, not exposed, grass is still growing, albeit slowly, any stock, not milking, are up there, and fields shut up, for another cut.
Going back to the photo, of our fantastic 2nd cut, we were looking for a water pipe up there, dug a 50/60 metre trench, to find it, never did, but we went through some old stone drains, l cannot see any reason for them, l always say you could drive a car around, up there, any day of the year, been saying that for 50 odd yrs.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
It sounds like you simply arrive at the end of the second grazing rotation too early for your rainfall pattern. I can see the advantages of autumn calving but it takes an awful lot of concessions and energy to shift all that feed "through time".

A lot of farmers around here have an ideal stocking plan for the growth curve - they keep a minimum over the winter and numbers basically triple over springtime - and still haul summer into winter with a tractor.

So I really get a feel for the world you're in, I was always amazed how winter-milking burned up grazing area - 17 cows over winter probably grazed 300 cows worth of potential grazing in the spring. - the m² allocation was just so huge for the litreage!

So I think that's where I would continue to look - that m² per 24 hr allocation, while your grass is growing.
Otherwise your acres just can't hold enough grass for your grazing demand, even if it is great stuff.
that about sums it up.
our milk contract is for winter milk, they like to 'balance' out autumn and spring calving herds.
If we were still spring calving, the cows would either be gone, or we would be feeding heavily. In reality, we have 'sorted' out many of the problems, this gap, is the last, but most difficult, bit of the 'plan', and it is controlled by weather, not us. Nor do l think a 'plate metre' plan type, would work, we have carefully planned the grazing, you have to, with the p/m, you build up a 'planned' rotation, governed by expected growth, our herbs, and residual covers, wouldn't work, for a p/m. Over the last decade, we have had a lot of 'experts' looking, and giving advice, all of them, have pushed the p/m, virtually all of them, after looking, have said a p/m isn't the answer.
We have tried to match the grass growth curve, with the stocking rate, but the weather, seems to synchronise the grass, all or nothing. Perhaps the answer is to keep moving towards the diverse leys, faster than we are, quite shocked to see how easily that chicory, and clover seed took, went on with some fert, chain harrowed, ring rolled. I don't know what 'herbal' silage would be like, cannot see any drawbacks from doing it. Multi cut silage, is now reserved, for the 'good' yrs.
Winter fodder, is sorted, we have close to 800 tons of quality silage, already. Some 2nd cut today, maize looks good, and a barn of hay - with more to do. Compared with 2020 backwards, winter fodder was the biggest problem, with the expense of buying it in. So a major improvement there.
we will keep plodding on.
 

Samcowman

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cornwall
we are feeding 'stock pile', its second cut, r/clover ley, the much better, thankfully, part of the field, photographed, and lost 3 litres a cow, some of that, will be offset by higher F and P . bit extra cake in the parlour, to help them out. Funnily, they are perfectly happy on it, they eat the seed heads off the grass, red clover, and leave most of the stalk, and they have hay on offer, which they like.
The biggest loss/problem, is that milk cannot be 'recovered', to late in lactation. Looking back over the grazing, we had an excellent 1st grazing, we cut a fair bit, for silage, too much for the cows to get around to. We do 1st cut, in 2 parts, leys first, then our pp, that's at 'prime' a week, 10 days later, and we took more 2nd round grazing, and put it in the pit, again, there wasn't a chance the cows could get around to it. Then it came in dry, and fudged everything.

One major regen principle, that so obviously works, is ground cover, our, and neighbours corn, looks great, maize simply sucks the sun up. Our 'dry' problem, is exasperated by air flow, heat and wind, dry the ground out, where there is little cover, that is what we need to 'sort' out.

The next problem, is the how. We will bring calving back 2/3 weeks, that will cover a bit more of the crunch time, and fully utilise the early growth, planned, not ad hoc, and just leave as much ground for grazing, as we can, even if it is 2nd cut.

On our away block, completely different, different soil type, not exposed, grass is still growing, albeit slowly, any stock, not milking, are up there, and fields shut up, for another cut.
Going back to the photo, of our fantastic 2nd cut, we were looking for a water pipe up there, dug a 50/60 metre trench, to find it, never did, but we went through some old stone drains, l cannot see any reason for them, l always say you could drive a car around, up there, any day of the year, been saying that for 50 odd yrs.
Rather than look at it as having ‘lost’ 3 litres a cow maybe need to look at it from the other side as not having to spend so much on getting the rest of the litres.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Yep, I really do think the p/m (where's that abbreviation been hiding, love it!) kinda focusses your eye on little short grass and hectares per day, when it could all be so much different!

I used to factor on about 25m² per cow for the first 2 rotations, most would have been 35-50m² and over several hundred cows it meant we were finishing our second rotation when most in our discussion group were into number 4

It maybe took .1 kgMS/ cow out of the tank during peak lactation but then our cows didn't crash when spring ran out, and powered on right through - about 46kgMS/cow ahead of "the hares" - and it saved topping 250-ish hectares.

We then had the "what are we gonna do with all this grass" issue and baled about 70ha of surplus.

I'd much rather use the hay-mower for mowing than topping and mowing in front of a baler seems a better use of resources.. it would take a bit to get my head around these new higher costs 😬🥺
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Rather than look at it as having ‘lost’ 3 litres a cow maybe need to look at it from the other side as not having to spend so much on getting the rest of the litres.
yes, you are correct, and as said, constituents are up, which dictates our price.
the loss of milk now, and the last few weeks, is a nuisance, but the real loss, is of total yield per cow, at this end of lactation, it cannot be recovered, so its actually 3/4 months worth of loss, we are looking late may, through to mid sept, which does add up, plus, these are the cheapest milk, production cost, off grass. With little grass, the cost per litre, to produce, rises, they need more conc, and we are feeding hay. So its not just 3 litres.
Its a problem we just have to find a solution to, we will, got a few ideas floating around my brain, just takes time. And, the rest of the year, is pretty well sorted out, with what we have done, means winter fodder is fine, before, it wasn't. That is a huge improvement.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Yep, I really do think the p/m (where's that abbreviation been hiding, love it!) kinda focusses your eye on little short grass and hectares per day, when it could all be so much different!

I used to factor on about 25m² per cow for the first 2 rotations, most would have been 35-50m² and over several hundred cows it meant we were finishing our second rotation when most in our discussion group were into number 4

It maybe took .1 kgMS/ cow out of the tank during peak lactation but then our cows didn't crash when spring ran out, and powered on right through - about 46kgMS/cow ahead of "the hares" - and it saved topping 250-ish hectares.

We then had the "what are we gonna do with all this grass" issue and baled about 70ha of surplus.

I'd much rather use the hay-mower for mowing than topping and mowing in front of a baler seems a better use of resources.. it would take a bit to get my head around these new higher costs 😬🥺
we run round with the topper, tidies up, and resets the pasture, and often whip round, with the chain harrows, to spread the crap about. any 'surplus' grass, we cut for fodder.
The present/increasing milk price, is altering all the equations, we are in very different waters, to normal. Not a believer in marginal litres, so feeding is based on what they need, no more, or less. And the cheapest cost, is grass.
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
we went through some old stone drains, l cannot see any reason for them, l always say you could drive a car around, up there, any day of the year, been saying that for 50 odd yrs.
There WILL have been a need. Even today you wouldn't install drains where not needed but massively more so when it was all hand work....
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
There WILL have been a need. Even today you wouldn't install drains where not needed but massively more so when it was all hand work....
certain there was, but l have never known it to be, other than dry, stone drains like that, would be 200 yrs +, perhaps the workers had peed their boss off !
all in all yield was more than l thought, still not a lot, but with a bit more, from elsewhere, respectable heap, in the pit, no doubt we will get some more, somewhere along the way
 
If you're running out of grass then you're overstocked. Using fert around here has traditionally doubled our acreage but they aren't cheap acres anymore hence us stopping using it and changing stocking rates and rest periods. We probably grow more grass here now since we stopped putting fert on the grazing ground 🤷.

Probably need to look closer at costs and labour etc as well, in my mind its way cheaper to graze pasture that you think is too long to graze rather than mowing, baling, wrapping/putting in the pit to feed out again at a later date when you've run out of grass mid June. Even losing a few litres of milk shouldn't matter just depends how your calculator works 😂

Be brave, there's no such thing as can't 👍
Interesting reading, the last few pages.

I am still wrestling with the direction to take the farm. We have about 10% shut off at the minute, hopefully it'll stay that way until the autumn for use as stockpile. It's not enough though, is it? A lot of fodder will need bought. Next summer we plan to carry more young cattle. I am mulling over a bit of a change in direction with the sheep and plan to cull fairly hard after weaning to pull their numbers back a little. Interesting conversation with a livestock agent the other day, several big flocks of ewes going off in this area. That makes me feel that decision to completely do away with the sheep would be a mistake as things stand. Things would be a lot simpler cattle only, though.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
FWIW Barry, the best thing I can say in terms of advice is "create your holistic context" because the farm will go in its own direction if you take the time to do that.

It'll literally all "think for itself"

Be generous in your creation, keep changing it until you love it. It becomes your creation!

I used phrases like "rich, deep covers of nature's own complex design" in what I created and this then becomes what and why and how based on what ever we think will advance that.

Hence we went to something we can maintain a decent density to create lots of stockpile, your context will be different, and your concerns - I ask you to simply look to what you want and scribble lots of stuff down about that.
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
our plate metre hasn't left the garage, for 3 yrs, ought to put it on e'bay.
we made a serious mistake, mainly for lack of labour, we changed from aug/sept to spring grazing xbreds. That was followed by 3 very dry summers, we had to buffer feed the xbreds, every day, whilst not being able to make enough fodder, £1,000's spent buying in, nearly finished us off, for dairy. So we have swopped back to oct/nov calving, and very pleased we did, that july/ aug dearth of grass, will be when the cows least need it.
We have changed things around, with how we graze, what we graze, as far as possible, its a max 24 hrs, on any block, controlled by elec fencing, and back fencing. The results are very encouraging. Min-til, dd all help. We also grow dedicated cutting leys, aiming for high protein silage, av last yr, 16 -19 % protein, that works as well.
Neither are we totally stuck, on the system, we use fert and sprays, rotation, plough when necessary, the mix of systems, has changed our farming, for the better.

exception, we have taken on 56acres, where no elec fencing, is allowed, so back to set stocking, for dry, and y/s.
how about no fence technology? I know it's very expensive.
 

Walwyn

Member
Location
West Wales
Yep, I really do think the p/m (where's that abbreviation been hiding, love it!) kinda focusses your eye on little short grass and hectares per day, when it could all be so much different!

I used to factor on about 25m² per cow for the first 2 rotations, most would have been 35-50m² and over several hundred cows it meant we were finishing our second rotation when most in our discussion group were into number 4

It maybe took .1 kgMS/ cow out of the tank during peak lactation but then our cows didn't crash when spring ran out, and powered on right through - about 46kgMS/cow ahead of "the hares" - and it saved topping 250-ish hectares.

We then had the "what are we gonna do with all this grass" issue and baled about 70ha of surplus.

I'd much rather use the hay-mower for mowing than topping and mowing in front of a baler seems a better use of resources.. it would take a bit to get my head around these new higher costs 😬🥺
Just trying to wrap my head around the area allocations you quote. 25m2 is not a lot, @2.5 cows/Ha overall would mean 160 days rotation would it not? Completely agree with the message your getting across just struggling when I try to translate to what it looks like. What point in the season would that second rotation have ended?
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Just trying to wrap my head around the area allocations you quote. 25m2 is not a lot, @2.5 cows/Ha overall would mean 160 days rotation would it not? Completely agree with the message your getting across just struggling when I try to translate to what it looks like. What point in the season would that second rotation have ended?
Yes, sorry that was a bit ambiguous - I was thinking of feeding them more than once when I hashed that out...

My first year as a manager was a complete disaster for the farmer had messed up his sums and we had basically ran out of kale before the first cow had calved, so we had everything on grass... I think 680 cows and heifers calved on grass, so it was a lot of rationing and a struggle for a while

second year I managed to convince him to let me dry plenty off early, so we had saved pasture in the springtime to keep the areas nice and small, I think our first rotation was about 70 days and the next one 60 or thereabouts - I always seemed to graze in a "where's got the most grass" pattern rather than a set rota.
Some of the area we wrecked early in the season, "sacrifice paddocks", we put summer turnips in and then back into grass

Ended up grazing it all 4 times and some 5 times, which was a bit different from "12 in 10" DairyNZ recs 😅
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 80 42.3%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 34.9%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 15.9%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,293
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top