"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Chasingmytail]

138 pages...I could read them but with your forbearance -

What is holistic grazing?

https://www.savory.global/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/about-holistic-planned-grazing.pdf

 

[Chasingmytail]

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

well there is some extra feed to get two calves to weaning rather than one

True but you have to be measuring intake quite accurately to see it.

We've also often had "matron" cows who seem to collect up other cows calves and feed them all. That can throw any attempt to determine output per cow

 

[Crofter64]

all this talk of multi suckling I can't work out why cows haven't been bred to produce more twins like sheep were
our ave selling price per calf was way down this autumn owing to the prices being down but as there were two sets of twins the ave per cow was not that far off last year when we had non

The only reason this method works for me is that I finish and market my own meat. Otherwise my beef would be discounted against - too dairy,etc., I don’t market them till they’re ready and I’m prepared to wait . I live in a diary area and can usually get day old calves when I need them from neighbours at a reasonable price. I like to pay a fair price even when the calves are worth little.
I guess the reason cows aren’t bred to be twinners is because we’ve always valued their milk and don’t want to share it.

 

[Blaithin]

I guess I may be about to challenge that theory, but only because I intend to rear about 10 calves to weaning weight per cow per year.
I think a heifer could rear 6 and still be back in calf without a worry?

It's going to depend how you're planning on managing them. Leaving calves with the cows or milking the cows and feeding the calves? What age are you weaning? 3 months, 4, 5? What production you're expecting on the cows and what length do you expect them to be lactating.

Right off the bat, it's not unusual for a nurse cow with calves at foot to take longer to breed back. Calves pull them down harder than milking, you're looking at 4 - 5 months before some might start cycling again if they've got too many calves on. Usually after they hit peak milk production and level off.

Also if you're planning on leaving calves cow access, while a calf can survive on 1.5 - 2 gallons if you're feeding it, they WANT more. I want my cows producing at least 2-3 gallons for every calf that has udder access.

Even if you're weaning calves at 3 months and figure with quick breed back you'll be getting a 9 month lactation, so you can do 3 batches of calves each lactation, I would think 6 calves for a heifer would be a rare occurrence and a very high expectation to put on them. That would be 2 calves for every batch, so you'd want her to be producing 5-6 gallons a day. Since many heifers can almost double their production with their second calves then you're looking at a potential 10-12 gallon a day cow. You're into full dairy levels really. With your beef cross girls I wouldn't be expecting them to produce that much. Yes the odd one might be very milky, but do you even want them to be that milky? I don't tend to push heifers, they get an extra month before breeding back and I don't put extra calves on them unless it looks like they'll produce more than their own can handle and it could become a health issue with too much milk. They have enough issues adjusting to producing milk and supporting a calf while holding their condition, I don't need to push them with extra. If you're planning on weaning and raising a couple of different batches then you could do that and see if they'll accept a foster a couple months into lactation when you wean the natural calf but once the birth hormones are out of the system they might not be so willing. And this unwillingness to want a new batch of calves might lead into other issues...

... they may not like other calves at all, beef breeds are notoriously harder to foster onto than dairy. They are queens at holding up for anything but their calf and I've had some hold up so hard they actually start drying up. They may also drop production extremely quick after a certain point in lactation as they aren't bred to milk for a long period of time like dairy girls. They can be easier keepers which is nicer, but they have their issues

You might want to start reading up on milk mirrors and see if you can apply that to your crosses? It might help you pick which ones will have the milking ability that will fit your plans.

 

[Crofter64]

OK. We’ve been grazing on what I’d call a slow rotation for years. At lambing the sheep go out in little groups on each field for a couple of weeks then we merge them into two or three groups. They graze a paddock at a time before moving on. We try to move them when the next field is ready rather than taking grass down to any particular level where they are. When the lambs are old enough we merge the groups again and give the lambs first dibs on the grass with creep gates. They’d be on weekly moves. After weaning the ewes tend to get mopping up jobs on the poorer land. We reseed a field a year with a mix of grass clover tyfon chicory and this year plantain. The chicory is sparse but lasts a good few years and the grass grows better where it remains.

So, is that holistic or not?

It sounds like a good system. However it depends on how your grass responds. Are the sheep taking it to the ground or are they leaving some so the grass can spring back up once they’re gone.? If they don’t take more than the top bit of a plant, i.e one bite, then several things happen. The grass grows back quicker, it doesn’t panic and send out seed heads, it grows even more feed for the next visit, and best of all it acts as a savings account for tough times when nothing is growing. Then you can come back and take more off. Holistic sort of means that your observations are part of the system. Its not apart from you, you are part of it and are the part that makes it flow/work.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

It's going to depend how you're planning on managing them. Leaving calves with the cows or milking the cows and feeding the calves? What age are you weaning? 3 months, 4, 5? What production you're expecting on the cows and what length do you expect them to be lactating.

Right off the bat, it's not unusual for a nurse cow with calves at foot to take longer to breed back. Calves pull them down harder than milking, you're looking at 4 - 5 months before some might start cycling again if they've got too many calves on. Usually after they hit peak milk production and level off.

Also if you're planning on leaving calves cow access, while a calf can survive on 1.5 - 2 gallons if you're feeding it, they WANT more. I want my cows producing at least 2-3 gallons for every calf that has udder access.

Even if you're weaning calves at 3 months and figure with quick breed back you'll be getting a 9 month lactation, so you can do 3 batches of calves each lactation, I would think 6 calves for a heifer would be a rare occurrence and a very high expectation to put on them. That would be 2 calves for every batch, so you'd want her to be producing 5-6 gallons a day. Since many heifers can almost double their production with their second calves then you're looking at a potential 10-12 gallon a day cow. You're into full dairy levels really. With your beef cross girls I wouldn't be expecting them to produce that much. Yes the odd one might be very milky, but do you even want them to be that milky? I don't tend to push heifers, they get an extra month before breeding back and I don't put extra calves on them unless it looks like they'll produce more than their own can handle and it could become a health issue with too much milk. They have enough issues adjusting to producing milk and supporting a calf while holding their condition, I don't need to push them with extra. If you're planning on weaning and raising a couple of different batches then you could do that and see if they'll accept a foster a couple months into lactation when you wean the natural calf but once the birth hormones are out of the system they might not be so willing. And this unwillingness to want a new batch of calves might lead into other issues...

... they may not like other calves at all, beef breeds are notoriously harder to foster onto than dairy. They are queens at holding up for anything but their calf and I've had some hold up so hard they actually start drying up. They may also drop production extremely quick after a certain point in lactation as they aren't bred to milk for a long period of time like dairy girls. They can be easier keepers which is nicer, but they have their issues

You might want to start reading up on milk mirrors and see if you can apply that to your crosses? It might help you pick which ones will have the milking ability that will fit your plans.

When I did it about 10 years ago I just used high SCC dairy cows that weren't really suitable for milking into the tank, but were otherwise way too good for culling out.
So their own calf had already been taken, I fostered 4 onto each one, weaned them at about 110kg and put next batch of 4 on, which seemed to 'do' much better than the first 4? Took them to about 130kg and then put 3 on them as they were back in-calf and producing a little less.

So yeah, it takes some management and patience but not the same level of time input as daily or twice daily feeding of a batch of calves did, I only had the opportunity to do it for 3 years and then I changed farms / jobs and had to give it up.

I was figuring if they could rear 11 or 12 per lactation then a heifer could manage half that, with decent feeding and care, and a bit more research - as I did almost no homework, just bought some cows and calves and put them together. The most difficult part of all was obtaining enough calves in the autumn as almost everything here is calved in the spring - so I would ideally just run two batches of calves.

I will have a talk to Andy about it, he does that on his farmlet about 5 miles from here; as I'm not sure if he keeps his cows over the winter, or culls them and gets new ones in the spring.. obviously each option has pros and cons to consider.

I guess the main thing I need to consider is: am I being too naive in that a 50/50 cow will supply enough milk for that 3rd batch, or am I better to start off with 2 batches in mind, rear them longer (especially the second batch) and dry them off earlier?

 

[Agrispeed]

My old boss used nurse cows. He had 3-4 calves per cow, normally high SCC or cows who had bad feet or were getting old. We penned the calves away from the cows at night and let them out in the morning, the cows were so swamped, some calves being theirs too that they couldn't stop them or kick them off quick enough After a week they could be let out and get on with it. It worked quite well, apart from the odd calf that would be rejected and the extra land required over feeding with a milkbar. If I had some spare rough land I would do it. This year I've fed calves for about 20 weeks - as long as I had some dump milk, although only a litre or so a day for the final few weeks and they have done very well on it. The cows were culled in the autumn when they had pretty much weaned the calves, although I seem to remember quite a few of the cows, having had their holiday, recovered from high SCC and having crap feet and went back into the milking herd.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

It's going to depend how you're planning on managing them. Leaving calves with the cows or milking the cows and feeding the calves? What age are you weaning? 3 months, 4, 5? What production you're expecting on the cows and what length do you expect them to be lactating.

Right off the bat, it's not unusual for a nurse cow with calves at foot to take longer to breed back. Calves pull them down harder than milking, you're looking at 4 - 5 months before some might start cycling again if they've got too many calves on. Usually after they hit peak milk production and level off.

Also if you're planning on leaving calves cow access, while a calf can survive on 1.5 - 2 gallons if you're feeding it, they WANT more. I want my cows producing at least 2-3 gallons for every calf that has udder access.

Even if you're weaning calves at 3 months and figure with quick breed back you'll be getting a 9 month lactation, so you can do 3 batches of calves each lactation, I would think 6 calves for a heifer would be a rare occurrence and a very high expectation to put on them. That would be 2 calves for every batch, so you'd want her to be producing 5-6 gallons a day. Since many heifers can almost double their production with their second calves then you're looking at a potential 10-12 gallon a day cow. You're into full dairy levels really. With your beef cross girls I wouldn't be expecting them to produce that much. Yes the odd one might be very milky, but do you even want them to be that milky? I don't tend to push heifers, they get an extra month before breeding back and I don't put extra calves on them unless it looks like they'll produce more than their own can handle and it could become a health issue with too much milk. They have enough issues adjusting to producing milk and supporting a calf while holding their condition, I don't need to push them with extra. If you're planning on weaning and raising a couple of different batches then you could do that and see if they'll accept a foster a couple months into lactation when you wean the natural calf but once the birth hormones are out of the system they might not be so willing. And this unwillingness to want a new batch of calves might lead into other issues...

... they may not like other calves at all, beef breeds are notoriously harder to foster onto than dairy. They are queens at holding up for anything but their calf and I've had some hold up so hard they actually start drying up. They may also drop production extremely quick after a certain point in lactation as they aren't bred to milk for a long period of time like dairy girls. They can be easier keepers which is nicer, but they have their issues

You might want to start reading up on milk mirrors and see if you can apply that to your crosses? It might help you pick which ones will have the milking ability that will fit your plans.

But, apart from that, all pretty straightforward

 

[Ysgythan]

View attachment 729284

Seems it’s the measuring bit we’re not doing.

The one brown field in this year’s drought was a herbal mix reseed. It came, the cabbage white had it, but it came again

It’s been a lot of food.

 

[ShooTa]

how tight were you running them ? some nice hedgerows to use tho.

 

[Crofter64]

Seems it’s the measuring bit we’re not doing.

View attachment 729632

The one brown field in this year’s drought was a herbal mix reseed. It came, the cabbage white had it, but it came again

View attachment 729636

It’s been a lot of food.

Cheers! Its nice to see things working out.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Cracking day today.
Had a lot planned but said "stuff it" and ended up doing very little, figured it was too good a day for weighing cattle or vaccinating lambs.

they'll grow faster out here than in a yard... I think it is fair to say they will average over 331.6kg.

Using the portable trough is quite handy, as the troughs are being drunk low enough for me to give a scrub-out and then refill them, which is one of those jobs too easy to put off.

hoggets are back to 100% again, more twins last night and a little triplet I have rescued as he wasn't going to amount to very much left with mum, the ones not rearing a lamb have adopted others so..... meet 'Jinx'

 

[Henarar]

Cracking day today.
Had a lot planned but said "stuff it" and ended up doing very little, figured it was too good a day for weighing cattle or vaccinating lambs.View attachment 729564they'll grow faster out here than in a yard... I think it is fair to say they will average over 331.6kg.View attachment 729996 View attachment 729568
Using the portable trough is quite handy, as the troughs are being drunk low enough for me to give a scrub-out and then refill them, which is one of those jobs too easy to put off.View attachment 729998
hoggets are back to 100% again, more twins last night and a little triplet I have rescued as he wasn't going to amount to very much left with mum, the ones not rearing a lamb have adopted others so..... meet 'Jinx'

Ahhhhhh

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Ahhhhhh

She is a bit dopey, I can see why her mum picked the other 2 and buggered off TBH.

I think lambing is about stuffed now, to be fair. Maybe a couple of later hoggets but they are that fat I don't know

I did weigh the mob of bigger yearling bulls and they are 370kg with full bellies so now I have a reference point and their EID tags in the scales - will see how they do.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I am moving across these paddocks pretty quickly as I want to cut them for silage, I did cut a few corners off the paddocks where they grow a bit less in an attempt to have a more uniform silage crop.

They probably ate about 2 inches off the top and left 6 or so inches behind, there is a funny spot that grows very little so I made them a corner there and they dirtied it up a little, keen to see what happens from it.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

View attachment 730028
I am moving across these paddocks pretty quickly as I want to cut them for silage, I did cut a few corners off the paddocks where they grow a bit less in an attempt to have a more uniform silage crop.

They probably ate about 2 inches off the top and left 6 or so inches.

There's already more there than the "second cut" I'll be rowing up today

 

[ShooTa]

ouch...

 

[Kiwi Pete]

There's already more there than the "second cut" I'll be rowing up today

There is more where the sheep are, it is actually quite a simple way to graze the way I am doing it.
I go into the "to" paddock and call the sheep, the cattle follow the sheep.
Then I walk to the next gate and call the rams, and the bulls follow them, then I take some pictures and wander home again.

It's very strenuous.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

There is more where the sheep are, it is actually quite a simple way to graze the way I am doing it.
I go into the "to" paddock and call the sheep, the cattle follow the sheep.
Then I walk to the next gate and call the rams, and the bulls follow them, then I take some pictures and wander home again.

It's very strenuous.

Stressfull on your vocal chords, is it?