"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

yeah i enjoyed the video - especially fencing on small farms - which is almost all UK farms. -
@Treg - its more the planned movement of the heavy stocking - knowing which fields at what times need the rest to defeat the worm burdens. that rest AND the longer grasses reduces the chance of disease pickup as the animals are only skimming the plant tops.
also the roaming - hes using humans or dogs or machines to force the movement.
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Please don't get me wrong @Poorbuthappy I found it interesting but as @Farmer Roy always says these videos are posted for us to discuss & by me maybe taking it slightly different & the rest of you replying speeds up the learning process for me & everyone else:)
Ah yes fully get the discussion bit - sometimes this stuff can come over a bit as patting one another on the back saying how wonderful you're doing and bypassing the difficult questions:). There's a vid I may post if I get chance to post comparing mob and rotational grazing which really generally favours rotational, but would be interesting to get people's thoughts on.

I think you have to remember the context Savory is coming from whereby desertification has pushed people to destock and he's trying to get them to see the error of that. We are in a somewhat different climate, with associated stocking densities, though many of the principles are transferable.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I get your approach to it Kp, from your posts it's put in as little work for highest return ( so you have time for family & doing other stuff, which is what we all should be trying to achieve), lots of stock in field for short time move on quickly & I think sometimes you have alot of stock but not all the time. Where as I took it he meant maintain those high stocking rates & keep increasing them.
As a Organic farmer this rings alarm bells , most of the problems I see with modern farming is the intensity of numbers, most of the diseases we have in modern agriculture have always been around but by packing animals together these diseases seem more prevalent .
He did mention rest periods but didn't come across as over worried because soil didn't need a break (can't quite remember the wording he used ) , to me it's not just about the soil or the grass , it's the interaction with the animals as well ( the soil web if you like ) so the break is needed to reduce worm burden on the cattle / sheep as well as plants being able to regenerate.
Some of what he said in the Video I agree with less groups of cattle , intense grazing for short periods I already do .
With most livestock farms I would of said the first thing needed to improve the whole "system " is fencing whether it's for paddock / mob or strip grazing not employing extra man power to move the herd & keep them in a area with dogs or men on horse back.
That's absolutely correct, but again it is to some degree a lack of livestock that makes the fencing and lots of water points so necessary (as an example)
Say on my 100 acres I keep 100 cows but to herd them I fence up my area into acre cells, which is where most people would be looking to go to maximise impact - what happens then if we go to 1000 cows for 2 months then they all trudge off next door, and then to the next neighbour down the road?
What about 12000 cows for 2 days?

If (hypothetically again) the whole of the Catlins area combined our cattle, instead of behaving like 3 year-olds and keeping a few each, we could manage them properly that they would never run out of somewhere to be next, and probably run 3x the head of cattle as a result?
Again, I say it is a time issue, not a number issue. I wouldn't need to be subdividing my paddocks into 1 acre cells if I had temporary use of 12000 cattle.

I think if we didn't all have this cute concept of boundaries it would soon become apparent the district could handle a lot more cattle, and was overstaffed, and didn't cooperate nearly enough to get the work done.
Maybe it is easier to visualise it happening in NZ where we have sort of adapted this type of arrangement for survival, to a certain degree. There are a huge number of sheep farmers here who never finish a lamb.

Effectively, by putting boundaries up, it actually means disease in the national herd is much much harder to manage on a whole
 
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Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
yeah i enjoyed the video - especially fencing on small farms - which is almost all UK farms. -
@Treg - its more the planned movement of the heavy stocking - knowing which fields at what times need the rest to defeat the worm burdens. that rest AND the longer grasses reduces the chance of disease pickup as the animals are only skimming the plant tops.
also the roaming - hes using humans or dogs or machines to force the movement.
I could see a drone being a really useful tool until collars become cheap and cheerful enough to use on large mobs.
As above a little mob of bulls don't need a reason to bunch up, that is testosterone in effect.
My rams are the same, put 4 of them on 40 acres and they still live in a little bunch, they don't pick 10 acres each.
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
That's absolutely correct, but again it is to some degree a lack of livestock that makes the fencing and lots of water points so necessary (as an example)
Say on my 100 acres I keep 100 cows but to herd them I fence up my area into acre cells, which is where most people would be looking to go to maximise impact - what happens then if we go to 1000 cows for 2 months then they all trudge off next door, and then to the next neighbour down the road?
What about 12000 cows for 2 days?

If (hypothetically again) the whole of the Catlins area combined our cattle, instead of behaving like 3 year-olds and keeping a few each, we could manage them properly that they would never run out of somewhere to be next, and probably run 3x the head of cattle as a result?
Again, I say it is a time issue, not a number issue. I wouldn't need to be subdividing my paddocks into 1 acre cells if I had temporary use of 12000 cattle.

I think if we didn't all have this cute concept of boundaries it would soon become apparent the district could handle a lot more cattle, and was overstaffed, and didn't cooperate nearly enough to get the work done.
Maybe it is easier to visualise it happening in NZ where we have sort of adapted this type of arrangement for survival, to a certain degree. There are a huge number of sheep farmers here who never finish a lamb.

Effectively, by putting boundaries up, it actually means disease in the national herd is much much harder to manage on a whole
Great idea. (y)

Most UK farmers can't even share a trailer, let alone their land :rolleyes::whistle:

I'd be up for it, sharing a huge mob. In your beautiful part of the world you'd get away with just driving 12000 cattle between farms as well. :cool:
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Great idea. (y)

Most UK farmers can't even share a trailer, let alone their land :rolleyes::whistle:

I'd be up for it, sharing a huge mob. In your beautiful part of the world you'd get away with just driving 12000 cattle between farms as well. :cool:
In your part of the world it wouldn't maintain enough employment ;) and I think therein lies the yawning chasm - our industries have greatly different purposes in reality. 1 stockman per 1000 cattle for an hour or two per day equals thousands without a job, never mind the resources.

There are several reasons why it won't happen, but the major one is that leap of thought - from being an employee to being a mere manager, and letting the cattle do the work - see why they love boundaries and passports :whistle:
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
Great idea. (y)

Most UK farmers can't even share a trailer, let alone their land :rolleyes::whistle:

I'd be up for it, sharing a huge mob. In your beautiful part of the world you'd get away with just driving 12000 cattle between farms as well. :cool:
They’re called community pastures here. All animals need brands.

It’s also part of the reason one animal with TB lead to over 10,000 head being culled a couple years ago. Because the original cow was in a herd that was part of the local community pasture.
 

Crofter64

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Quebec, Canada
I get your approach to it Kp, from your posts it's put in as little work for highest return ( so you have time for family & doing other stuff, which is what we all should be trying to achieve), lots of stock in field for short time move on quickly & I think sometimes you have alot of stock but not all the time. Where as I took it he meant maintain those high stocking rates & keep increasing them.
As a Organic farmer this rings alarm bells , most of the problems I see with modern farming is the intensity of numbers, most of the diseases we have in modern agriculture have always been around but by packing animals together these diseases seem more prevalent .
He did mention rest periods but didn't come across as over worried because soil didn't need a break (can't quite remember the wording he used ) , to me it's not just about the soil or the grass , it's the interaction with the animals as well ( the soil web if you like ) so the break is needed to reduce worm burden on the cattle / sheep as well as plants being able to regenerate.
Some of what he said in the Video I agree with less groups of cattle , intense grazing for short periods I already do .
With most livestock farms I would of said the first thing needed to improve the whole "system " is fencing whether it's for paddock / mob or strip grazing not employing extra man power to move the herd & keep them in a area with dogs or men on horse back.
What I got from the video, and in general what Savory’s herding is trying to achieve , is a sort of pulsing- herding, whether its caused by animals being actually herded by people/ dogs, or by predators, or just from high spirits, causes an intense pressure on the soil/ grasses which hyper stimulates everything and is then relieved and not repeated for a long while. It makes sense , but I haven’t achieved it yet. I think the twice a day move would help, but can’t seem to manage it. I think keeping animals in the field and not having them wend their way back to the barn for whatever reason , is key. Haven’t managed that one either.A lot of it is about access to water. unfortunately Alan Savory didn’t answer that question.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
What I got from the video, and in general what Savory’s herding is trying to achieve , is a sort of pulsing- herding, whether its caused by animals being actually herded by people/ dogs, or by predators, or just from high spirits, causes an intense pressure on the soil/ grasses which hyper stimulates everything and is then relieved and not repeated for a long while. It makes sense , but I haven’t achieved it yet. I think the twice a day move would help, but can’t seem to manage it. I think keeping animals in the field and not having them wend their way back to the barn for whatever reason , is key. Haven’t managed that one either.A lot of it is about access to water. unfortunately Alan Savory didn’t answer that question.
Yeah, that is possibly best demonstrated by what our British friends would call "dog and stick" farming?
Or, if you like kids movies, "The Good Dinosaur" and his T-Rex mates managed a big herd without material possessions at all, they just drove the longhorns to the river and between pastures.
Most modern grazing tactics are a long, long way from that, they didn't even have a decent set of hurdles for vaccinating them :whistle:
However @Kevtherev has shown me some really interesting links to sheep farming in Israel, where droving/herding style ranching is very much how it is done.
Due to culture/religion, many of the avenues for biodiversity are forbidden; even sowing more than one species per paddock, or mixing stock is forbidden IIRC o_O
It is much more about the movement than the eating, anyway.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
.A lot of it is about access to water. unfortunately Alan Savory didn’t answer that question.
need a self moving water trough that transmits a virtual fence to fence say an acre at a time for 12 hours and then move on following a plan, the water would come from a pipe a bit like an irrigator/umbilical
and we could sun ourselves while they grow in to money
simple enough really :)
 

Treg

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cornwall
A brief history of farming...
20181113_080032.jpg
Beyond the hedge you can see a line of mature trees, these trees are on the remains of a ancient dyke , the largest enclosed prehistoric area in western Europe, built approximately 4000bc & enclosing 1500 acres (the ring fence! ) . The inhabitants worked together to herd cattle in side and outside the enclosed area . 2000 bc they started to add hedges inside the enclosure to grow crops & maybe easier management of cattle? This process of adding hedges took several thousand years & happened at the same time that Cornwall is getting rich on Tin . Did the inhabitants have less time so enclose the cattle so they could dig a hole to find Tin ? ( one of the oldest tin working areas is also within the main enclosed area, started in approximately 2000bc ) .
Not sure when ownership of land really started but the enclosed area became a manor in between 500 - 1000 AD , hedges start to be removed!? Until 17-1800s when individuals start being tenants / owners , this happens at the same time as the famine & last of the Cornish rebellions, no coincidence IMO ( let the peasants have their own piece of land , stops them rebelling because it can be taken away & they will probably work harder to produce food for their own families (more efficient?)). These smaller farmers rebuild some of the ancient hedges so many fields were less than half a acre with farm size 10- 15 acres. These small units with several fields allowed them to keep various livestock, grow crops ( with field rotations ) & work down the mine.
My own land became a farm in 1880 kicking off the 12 tenants as it was sold to a different estate, the drop in the price of tin effected the previous estate, where as the new owners son worked in Spain & sent money home to buy property. As farm size in the area started to increase & more machinery is used on farms hedges begin to be removed again increasing field size. The last 50yrs field size has remained the same, with most people increasingly using electric fences to sub divide fields.
As @Henarar says there's nothing new in farming.(y)
 

Treg

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cornwall
I do have one field with a very low hedge in the corner ... Local folklore says that the local farmers tried to catch a cookcoo as it's call is said to represent Spring & they thought that if they caught one it would call all year round meaning it would be forever spring. Unfortunately they didn't finish the hedge in time & it flew away:(:rolleyes: ever since the local farmers have been called Cookcoo:D
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer

CornishTone

Member
BASIS
Location
Cornwall
A brief history of farming...View attachment 738120Beyond the hedge you can see a line of mature trees, these trees are on the remains of a ancient dyke , the largest enclosed prehistoric area in western Europe, built approximately 4000bc & enclosing 1500 acres (the ring fence! ) . The inhabitants worked together to herd cattle in side and outside the enclosed area . 2000 bc they started to add hedges inside the enclosure to grow crops & maybe easier management of cattle? This process of adding hedges took several thousand years & happened at the same time that Cornwall is getting rich on Tin . Did the inhabitants have less time so enclose the cattle so they could dig a hole to find Tin ? ( one of the oldest tin working areas is also within the main enclosed area, started in approximately 2000bc ) .
Not sure when ownership of land really started but the enclosed area became a manor in between 500 - 1000 AD , hedges start to be removed!? Until 17-1800s when individuals start being tenants / owners , this happens at the same time as the famine & last of the Cornish rebellions, no coincidence IMO ( let the peasants have their own piece of land , stops them rebelling because it can be taken away & they will probably work harder to produce food for their own families (more efficient?)). These smaller farmers rebuild some of the ancient hedges so many fields were less than half a acre with farm size 10- 15 acres. These small units with several fields allowed them to keep various livestock, grow crops ( with field rotations ) & work down the mine.
My own land became a farm in 1880 kicking off the 12 tenants as it was sold to a different estate, the drop in the price of tin effected the previous estate, where as the new owners son worked in Spain & sent money home to buy property. As farm size in the area started to increase & more machinery is used on farms hedges begin to be removed again increasing field size. The last 50yrs field size has remained the same, with most people increasingly using electric fences to sub divide fields.
As @Henarar says there's nothing new in farming.(y)

Where’s that then @Treg?
 

Treg

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cornwall
Where’s that then @Treg?
St Agnes, the dyke runs from Chapel porth to Trevaunce cove so enclosing the headland. Very few bits of the dyke remain , mainly destroyed by mining & more recently house building , the bits that remain are impressive when you consider when it was built, 2m ditch with 3-4m bank behind .
On the sea side many of the small fields have remained unchanged , very similar to St Ives to Sennen area & Tintagel to Boscastle area , I assume all these areas are exposed to the sea so small fields remained a benefit through out history to keep animals sheltered?
 
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Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Why does the feedback loop have four steps? I'm sure one of the two adjacent planning steps is unnecessary...
That's a great question.

For me, it is to keep the plan adaptive, or changing as the context changes (maybe imperceptible change?) hence the plan is the start and finish of the loop (if that exists)
I am always noticing little things that come from monitoring that aren't ideal, so I can refer back to my notebook and plan, then adapt the plan to address and implement change to hopefully mean a better future result.

If those two steps were combined, then it becomes a monitored system, and loses some of the ability to respond to complexity, and change.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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