"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Poorbuthappy]

Looks grand. How many hens?

As far as Reynard goes, would an automatic timed door closer not do the trick? I've been thinking about chooks but assumed I'd be able to let them free range during the day, and rely on a machine to shut them up.

We lose them in the day here too.
Starts with an odd 1 or 2, then, sooner or later there's carnage and he kills 1/2 or more of them. They were completely free range just shut up at night, then we tried fox proofing a courtyard, but he got in there last time and there's very little grass in there so it's good to get them back in the field.
Currently 24 in that run but intention is for 2 x 15 set ups, which will be within free range requirements. Daughter's very small scale project but you have to start somewhere.
Broilers will be more on the Salatin style with 50 or more in a "chicken tractor"

 

[bitwrx]

We lose them in the day here too.
Starts with an odd 1 or 2, then, sooner or later there's carnage and he kills 1/2 or more of them. They were completely free range just shut up at night, then we tried fox proofing a courtyard, but he got in there last time and there's very little grass in there so it's good to get them back in the field.
Currently 24 in that run but intention is for 2 x 15 set ups, which will be within free range requirements. Daughter's very small scale project but you have to start somewhere.
Broilers will be more on the Salatin style with 50 or more in a "chicken tractor"

Liked cos of you being helpful, not cos of foxy pinching hens. He takes piglets occasionally, but only overnight.

Hope your daughter's enterprise goes well. As you say, you gotta start somewhere. And the sooner you start the better.

 

[hendrebc]

We lose them in the day here too.
Starts with an odd 1 or 2, then, sooner or later there's carnage and he kills 1/2 or more of them. They were completely free range just shut up at night, then we tried fox proofing a courtyard, but he got in there last time and there's very little grass in there so it's good to get them back in the field.
Currently 24 in that run but intention is for 2 x 15 set ups, which will be within free range requirements. Daughter's very small scale project but you have to start somewhere.
Broilers will be more on the Salatin style with 50 or more in a "chicken tractor"

I'm going to have a small scale go at this this summer too but only with 6 or so hens and a couple of ducks for variety maybe. Don't want any more than I can use the eggs ourselves or give to close family and friends. How are you going to sell the surplus? That's the only thing stopping me doing more I couldn't sell the eggs last time I tried

 

[Poorbuthappy]

I'm going to have a small scale go at this this summer too but only with 6 or so hens and a couple of ducks for variety maybe. Don't want any more than I can use the eggs ourselves or give to close family and friends. How are you going to sell the surplus? That's the only thing stopping me doing more I couldn't sell the eggs last time I tried

Daughter's been selling the eggs to friends and family for probably 4 or 5 years now. Reckon it could be scaled up with a bit of marketing but delivery is always the issue - unless all your customers are on a regular route you can't afford to go very far for a £1.20 box of eggs!

 

[foobar]

Since we have gone no spray and gone sheep grazing and sh!t chucking, we are seeing new vegetation that has not been visible prior to this year (before sheep go back on) anyone know what they are:

I might be wrong but I think the middle one is Lords & Ladies, I have seen variegated ones before. If it is, pull it out, they are poisonous and self seed everywhere.

 

[Ukjay]

I might be wrong but I think the middle one is Lords & Ladies, I have seen variegated ones before. If it is, pull it out, they are poisonous and self seed everywhere.

Thank you, I will have a look - probably take it out anyway to be safe..

 

[ShooTa]

@foobar - not lord and ladies... right sort of shape (a danger arrow) but wrong markings - lord and ladies have black spots as warnings...Unless its got some massive nutrient problem.
as others have said some dead nettle + buttercup - but i couldnt tell you the others ... off on a foraging course hopefully this weekend so might know more..
@Poorbuthappy ncie looking grass - bit envious .. clearly better at growing the green stuff than me.

.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

https://www.savory.global/climate-c...ns43brqibsd86rXGB_6Sa8_AzJlRYHJfe3gY55V8YhOzc

That one slipped by..
Good article, I know my own boys are reasonably well aware of the "why" behind our actions - because I explain to them!

Just the other day, the eldest remarked to his mother "why do they have those cows behind a wire but let them backgraze, they're missing out on so much carbon"
which gave me a big grin when the conversation was relayed today.
Kids seem to be able to instantly grasp simple principles, likewise those entering agriculture from other businesses or backgrounds do.

I'm still amazed that necessary information, such as financial and ecological literacy, manages to slide off school curriculum year after year, yet everybody must learn algebra and what onomatopoeia and alliteration do...

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Hmm, maybe a quick mower job then..

Maybe, not everything that grows has to go down a throat. If it isn't invasive then just leave it be until something "better" comes along - I may be a bit odd in my thought processes but if you don't wish plants ill then you get better plants, and much better enjoyment IME
If you see it through my eyes then the "strictest" farmers out there are usually the unhappiest and busiest, the happiest of us don't really sweat the details so much.
All weed species have something to offer, even if they don't exactly contribute to the livestock diet thistles and nettles are often simply present in small numbers, just as the landscape in most areas would have a smattering of something "not grass" eg trees or ferns - or some type of diversity.

Too clean can be a cost.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Plenty of weeds out there. But the herd munched and bashed them down enough to mean they will just stay in the background. Bit of a time line, the left side was grazed 4 days ago and the right side about 8 days. Not setting many records but at least it's growing!!

 

[texas pete]

That one slipped by..
Good article, I know my own boys are reasonably well aware of the "why" behind our actions - because I explain to them!

Just the other day, the eldest remarked to his mother "why do they have those cows behind a wire but let them backgraze, they're missing out on so much carbon"
which gave me a big grin when the conversation was relayed today.
Kids seem to be able to instantly grasp simple principles, likewise those entering agriculture from other businesses or backgrounds do.

I'm still amazed that necessary information, such as financial and ecological literacy, manages to slide off school curriculum year after year, yet everybody must learn algebra and what onomatopoeia and alliteration do...

I know, a lot in it we have already read, but I thought it summed up the whole ethos brilliantly.

Unsurprisingly, your lads are soaking it up, as you are demonstrating the "why" and the "how", learning as you go, as a team I suppose. It did make me smile when you complained about being out of a job now your son is doing mob moves. It's like the kids who've been skiing, ice skating, sailing etc since year dot...it's instinctive and you have a devil of a job to catch them, as a later adopter.

At the other end of the scale, we have a friend who is a primary teacher and she sometimes comments on the new starters who, when given a book, don't know what to do with it....makes you think your not doing such a bad job..

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I know, a lot in it we have already read, but I thought it summed up the whole ethos brilliantly.

Unsurprisingly, your lads are soaking it up, as you are demonstrating the "why" and the "how", learning as you go, as a team I suppose. It did make me smile when you complained about being out of a job now your son is doing mob moves. It's like the kids who've been skiing, ice skating, sailing etc since year dot...it's instinctive and you have a devil of a job to catch them, as a later adopter.

At the other end of the scale, we have a friend who is a primary teacher and she sometimes comments on the new starters who, when given a book, don't know what to do with it....makes you think your not doing such a bad job..

He's a pretty cool chap
Like me he is coasting along at school because his parents teach a lot of things at home and thus he is easily intrigued - we spent over an hour today looking at seafloor scars from icebergs (the end of the last ice age) on the net - without wanting to brainwash or scare them, it's our duty to give them survival and coping skills

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I'm going to have a small scale go at this this summer too but only with 6 or so hens and a couple of ducks for variety maybe. Don't want any more than I can use the eggs ourselves or give to close family and friends. How are you going to sell the surplus? That's the only thing stopping me doing more I couldn't sell the eggs last time I tried

You can soon recycle any spare egg protein back through your stock, either play "Easter Bunny" and let them work out eggs are good, or crack eggs into a feeder for them.
They do well on egg

 

[Poorbuthappy]

@foobar - not lord and ladies... right sort of shape (a danger arrow) but wrong markings - lord and ladies have black spots as warnings...Unless its got some massive nutrient problem.
as others have said some dead nettle + buttercup - but i couldnt tell you the others ... off on a foraging course hopefully this weekend so might know more..
@Poorbuthappy ncie looking grass - bit envious .. clearly better at growing the green stuff than me.

.

Not sure I'm gonna take too much credit for that!
Last grazed in December with lambs. I'm sure a quicker grazing round last autumn has helped recovery, but we've had a mild winter and it had a bit of chicken muck. It's grass keep that the owner fertilizes so it has had fert too, but that's only just starting to take effect.
Old story though, grass grows grass. Yet I'm only just starting to learn how to put that knowledge to better effect.

I could show you some very bare fields too.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

https://www.savory.global/climate-c...ns43brqibsd86rXGB_6Sa8_AzJlRYHJfe3gY55V8YhOzc

Did you watch Sir David Attenborough's climate change warning documentary last night? We thought it was actually a bit tame, probably the BBC being unwilling to scare the poor horses too much

I liked the big message saying, if nothing else, do these 3 things:

1. Don't fly, period. It's the worst GHG offender by far.
2. Eat all the food you buy (& by implication don't buy things you won't use). Avoid food that's been air-freighted at all costs.
3. Reduce your meat and dairy consumption.

Reasonably balanced, I thought. It wasn't the right place to debate the nuances of CAFO meat vs pasture fed meat.

It is also interesting that Australia is lumped in with the USA and Canada as the worst average environmental impact per head of population, double that of Europe and China. That should be thrown in the face of the Aussie "Vegandals" (lovely phrase) who blame the farmers for everything whilst not opposing the coal industry, aviation etc.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Did you watch Sir David Attenborough's climate change warning documentary last night? We thought it was actually a bit tame, probably the BBC being unwilling to scare the poor horses too much

I liked the big message saying, if nothing else, do these 3 things:

1. Don't fly, period. It's the worst GHG offender by far.
2. Eat all the food you buy (& by implication don't buy things you won't use). Avoid food that's been air-freighted at all costs.
3. Reduce your meat and dairy consumption.

Reasonably balanced, I thought. It wasn't the right place to debate the nuances of CAFO meat vs pasture fed meat.

It is also interesting that Australia is lumped in with the USA and Canada as the worst average environmental impact per head of population, double that of Europe and China. That should be thrown in the face of the Aussie "Vegandals" (lovely phrase) who blame the farmers for everything whilst not opposing the coal industry, aviation etc.

Didn't see it, but thanks for the resume.

I get your point about not the place for comparing meat production systems, but if we really believe the Alan Savory principle that livestock are the solution not the problem it needs putting out there at every opportunity because atm Joe public is just getting told livestock are climate change enemy no. 1

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Didn't see it, but thanks for the resume.

I get your point about not the place for comparing meat production systems, but if we really believe the Alan Savory principle that livestock are the solution not the problem it needs putting out there at every opportunity because atm Joe public is just getting told livestock are climate change enemy no. 1

There was too much focus on trees as well and not enough on grasslands becoming deserts, definitely Alan Savory territory there.

An interesting piece from one of the scientists on the fact that when the USA released the images from Landsat to the open Internet it suddenly became crystal clear just how bad the deforestation trend has become. That theme should have been expanded to desertification IMHO.

We DESPERATELY need a robust way to include the appropriate "environmental impact tax" on all the timber products being made and sold from illegally logged timber and on the palm oil grown in their aftermath.

£5000 for a tv cabinet anyone?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Didn't see it, but thanks for the resume.

I get your point about not the place for comparing meat production systems, but if we really believe the Alan Savory principle that livestock are the solution not the problem it needs putting out there at every opportunity because atm Joe public is just getting told livestock are climate change enemy no. 1

They can (livestock) be either of those things.
Things like straw are claimed to simply be "byproducts" but they certainly don't simply blow into a barn on the back of a fair wind.

Very little seems to happen in many production systems without almost total reliance on fossil fuels - right down to the grass-harrowing to help burn and oxidise a wee sniff more carbon. This is not much of a "global solution" in my opinion, if we are going to turn a key it needs to be doing something a little more constructive than fluffing beds and smashing insects.

Just my 2p, I've been guilty of wasting a lot of time and energy doing F.A. and it wasn't kicking a bag of wind

 

[Ukjay]

Maybe, not everything that grows has to go down a throat. If it isn't invasive then just leave it be until something "better" comes along - I may be a bit odd in my thought processes but if you don't wish plants ill then you get better plants, and much better enjoyment IME
If you see it through my eyes then the "strictest" farmers out there are usually the unhappiest and busiest, the happiest of us don't really sweat the details so much.
All weed species have something to offer, even if they don't exactly contribute to the livestock diet thistles and nettles are often simply present in small numbers, just as the landscape in most areas would have a smattering of something "not grass" eg trees or ferns - or some type of diversity.

Too clean can be a cost.

To be fair - I follow that view on the whole as not spraying has shown up some docks etc, but if the species in question is a poisonous plant; is it not safer to remove from potentially spreading a problem?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

To be fair - I follow that view on the whole as not spraying has shown up some docks etc, but if the species in question is a poisonous plant; is it not safer to remove from potentially spreading a problem?

On a case by case basis, yes, absolutely.
If I had a heap of (example) ragwort and I was going to remove their ability to leave it (example, cutting for fodder) then I'd certainly go through and pull them out beforehand.
Generally though, they don't become hugely problematic if you:
Graze properly
Don't do funny stuff like premowing
Don't compact or abuse the soil
Give them some competition from strong pasture plants.
And in this case, ragwort simply give a clue that I need more sheep, so I'd buy or invite some in and let them at the ragworts until they were gone again - I plan for this happening, but it doesn't mean that I need sheep on hand at all times until then.