"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Bury the Trash]

Can't disagree with any of that.

That's why it's good to make mistakes, and learn from them

My only problem is, one of my favourite pastimes is "pernicious weed" destruction, by flail or by spray. It's a habit I have to kick, but it's tough. I will get there.

Why not stick with it, ? theres far worse things to do like sit around in indecision ...smoking and drinking or constantly looking at phones ......

As long as one doesnt get obsessed with it
........same as everything..... ' if it stops being fun, best to stop doing it'

 

[onesiedale]

BOOM!
Pete, bet you were glad to get that lot off your chest.
Have you submitted it for the editorial comment in next week's Farmers Weekly?

 

[jack6480]

Someone please tell me how I love brome in my wheat

 

[baaa]

Learn to love them. The easiest way by far to "manage" them.... or many other "problems"

(I was hoping someone would comment, if I was provocative enough). Thanks Pete!

Context is HUGE!

For an example, someone in the midwest US with 50,000 acres is NOT going to worry about thistles, docks, ragwort the way someone with 200 acres is going to worry...
Why? Because they will see the futility of 'action', as opposed to a change of management (which is, technically, an action ).

Similarly Mr Bigtime will not worry if the soil pH isn't correct for high-sugar ryegrass, or wonder when's the best time to plough a tenth of his land for a reseed, or whether he needs a topper.
At large scale, most of the options open to a wealthy smallholder are simply impractical to implement - which is why I look to those big ranchers for solutions.
They can't "whack on 3 tons of lime per acre" or 10 tons of manure, spray, mow it or completely change their usage of the landscape.

Most of these problems are only "monsters under the bed", not actually a landscape problem so much as a management problem expressing itself through the plants that grow there... on that landscape

And usually - the symptoms point back to one underlying problem that needs to be solved - our system is degenerative, ie it is haemorrhaging carbon somewhere, usually a variety of leaks..

Sometimes it's through lack of groundcover, cultivation or creating bare soil is a fantastic way to do this.
Sometimes it's because we are grazing/removing more than what the landscape would naturally grow; or replacing what is removed with the wrong stuff.
Dead stuff, toxic stuff, is generally not what is needed. Most fertiliser is as dead as it's possible to be.

And sometimes, it's simply because we are weakening the more desirable plants through poor grazing, which would otherwise easily outcompete the less desirable ones.
Sometimes we don't even know why we are choosing to grow these particular species, other than "it pays alright", which is interesting when you consider that the most profitable ecosystems are the most natural ones?

Sometimes our first reaction, to get rid of the evidence, is the main problem. I did that, the thistles stayed - I learnt to love them, and they left - it can't have been "meant to be"?

If I happened upon a car smash, the problems are reasonably apparent, but hiding the bloodsoaked bandages will not help the bodies recover.
Slowing the bleeding may help the outcome more!

That's what I was meaning by "hand-wringing" in my earlier post, just like at that car smash; if someone isn't going to be helping to address the main underlying problems, then they are probably better off back behind the cordon.
But if they're able to help keeping pressure on a wound, or monitor a patient, then that's a big help. I think we sometimes need to stop rushing around doing, and use our minds for that amount of time.

So the question really is how would my land look if I wasn't here. How can I improve on nature's effort and recompense myself for my time, effort and costs?

In the winter of 2017/18, I stock grazed one 22 acre paddock continuously with horses and sheep, fed them big bale hay in there. In spring 2018 I started to split the field into paddocks and in the summer the thistles were everywhere and much taller than the sheep and I had to buy the equipment to cut them down after a warning letter from the council.

This winter I rested all but one of the paddocks. At the moment the thistles are quite small no taller than the grass apart from where I fed the hay two winters ago where they are big. So not grazing these fields has made the thistles less competitive. In the sacrifice field I had for the sheep for 3months, the thistles are tall green and ready to cut!
I have never put nitrates on the land but I do buy in hay. I am always thinking how I can improve my grass make it grow greener. I have no ryegrass, just natural prairie grass. The answer I know is more rest and get the animals to position their manure evenly around the land, just like HPG. For the short term, to get the grass at a safe grazing height, should I fertilise? I've seen the effect putting my muck heap on one field had. Perhaps a better solution is to sell some stock, get the field grazing system right then increase again if I want to.

I do, however, feel I have come a long way forward when I see me neighbour's land. Continuously grazed, it has mostly rough areas inedible to their horses now. Lots of buttercup, ragwort and docks. I guess, the devil makes thistles grow at my place because he knows the sheep will eat everything else

 

[Blaithin]

Why get rid of thistles?

I don't mind the odd thistle, sure, but why am I going to wait years for them to finish their thing and give way to grass and other yummies when I can help the process on? Those photos show it good, thistles survive even high density trampling! Plants are less useful as a cover if they only cover the 4 square inches of their canopy and then go to seed so they procreate like a gopher.

Mash down large groups of thistles in whichever way you can. Chop them off near the base, run them over, trample them in... get them lying on the ground with the rest of the plant matter. Do it before they go to seed. In this way the ones that are there are helping but they aren't making their presence last longer than long. The thistles at my place will probably be there in my great great grandchildren's generation if I don't do anything to them

Individual, scattered plants are harder to deal with efficiently but for the large clusters I like the most economic option. Stick your cattle's mineral dish there! Somebody has 50, 000 acres and runs cows on them? They probably don't have huge over grazed areas full of thistles to begin with but if they do, yeah they're going to manage them instead of just leaving them to their own prickly devices. I know some producers who have trained their herds to find the mineral dish by using a pole with a flag on top. That way once one patch of thistles is well trampled they can move on to the next and the cows can easily find it because of the flag.

No reason to keep your mineral near the water, use it to help trample areas that need the extra hoof attention.

I've also heard if you chop up undesirable plants and feed them to cattle, eventually they will develop a taste for them and eat them. Haven't tried it myself and my cows only seem to eat thistles after fall frosts when they've already gone to seed

Plus there's the convenience factor. Yes Poplar trees are quick growing and great in a treeline, but they have those horrid sticker things and fluff that makes it look like it's snowing, so why put up with hundreds of them in a treeline when you can pick a different species of tree that's less of a pain. Thistle wise, why do I want a plant that stabs me, pokes me and gets stuck in my clothes when I can have other, nicer plants.

Yes good management can get rid of them, but tweaking management can get rid of them faster

 

[onesiedale]

@onesiedale what’s your plan for those thistles. Whack them off with a grubber? Started doing the odd ones I have on the rotation when I move them now.

Well, I've made a start on them, and it's quite satisfying

 

[GreenerGrass]

I rate the multiweeda for getting them and ragwort out. It's worth the money I think. Those are the only two I pull, one for being poisonous in hay and the other for being a **** in hay or standing. Plenty of docks with long roots that stock will eat.

 

[Karliboy]

18 cattle and 11 calf’s on 1/4 acre at moment

Docks starting to head again so thought I’d best crack on and graze again and get them nipped off.
Couple of calf’s are new to electric fence. They learn fairly quick though

 

[Samcowman]

After buggering my elbow doing them with a spade I got a thistle grubber. Like I used to use in nz. Much easier on yourself then.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Harbour-Ho...argid=aud-543776533562:pla-761567800207&psc=1

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

18 cattle and 11 calf’s on 1/4 acre at moment View attachment 810564
Docks starting to head again so thought I’d best crack on and graze again and get them nipped off.
Couple of calf’s are new to electric fence. They learn fairly quick though

I'm beginning to think stopping docks seeding is a red herring. We were taught at college that dock seed has proved viable after 100 years isolation so there will always be seed there of the management lets them thrive. I'm focusing more on the management now and worrying less of a few docks seed.

 

[Henarar]

Dad bought this field in the late 70s early 80s and there were a few docks in this part then, its been cut once every year since then grazed and its been broad leaf sprayed a couple times also pulled them and topped them and they are still there much the same, other parts of the field have non, I think they like it there

 

[Bury the Trash]

After buggering my elbow doing them with a spade I got a thistle grubber. Like I used to use in nz. Much easier on yourself then.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Harbour-Housewares-Digging-Wooden-Handle/dp/B00GAZ221Y/ref=asc_df_B00GAZ221Y/?tag=googshopuk-21&lin

A mattock ? still got to give a fair old swing with in dry ground tho and you need to go down under the roots ....

the one Greener Grass mentions above , just lifts the root using a stab and leverage it out not cutting it and with less soil moved than a spade.

 

[Henarar]

A mattock ? still got to give a fair old swing with in dry ground tho and you need to go down under the roots ....

the one Greener Grass mentions above , just lifts the root using a stab and leverage it out not cutting it and with less soil moved than a spade.

a mattock has a blade that goes the other way on the other side

 

[Bury the Trash]

a mattock has a blade that goes the other way on the other side

yeah but the other bits a pick .

they still take some swinging in dry ground tho

www.molevalleyfarmers.com/mvf/store/products/compass-mattock-hoe-head-5

 

[Northern territory]

18 cattle and 11 calf’s on 1/4 acre at moment View attachment 810564
Docks starting to head again so thought I’d best crack on and graze again and get them nipped off.
Couple of calf’s are new to electric fence. They learn fairly quick though

How often will you move them on on 1/4 acre.

 

[davieh3350]

These are the mutts nuts for thistles

 

[Bury the Trash]

made me own by modifying a garden fork

....but it .would probably be a bit of an exaggeration to say it ever really 'improved my lot '

 

[Kiwi Pete]

made me own by modifying a garden fork
View attachment 810900
....but it .would probably be a bit of an exaggeration to say it ever really 'improved my lot '

That's a serious bit of gear

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Be good for ragwort.
I used to use a bit of salt down the hole on big raggies on the dairy, but I guess that's a bit too toxic . Certainly stopped a new one growing in the old hole, so to speak

The trouble is that the broadleaf may be a real safehaven for our soil critters in extreme hot and dry times, as well as somewhere to dry out in the really wet times. I don't recall the last time that digging out a weed that wouldn't have revealed a whole mess of earthworms and little beasts living safe within that root structure

...so I had a change of heart, all those yellow flowers are like little village halls, and we'd be p.issed if ours got "bombed".... I therefore 'suck it up, buttercup' with regards to my weed situation

 

[Blaithin]

Depends on the weed.

Not all weeds are equal.