"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Kiwi Pete]

I know the feeling, we got the mapping done, fibreglass lane markers in and boundary markers done. But the need of quite alot of stock fencing to create a solid side to two of the systems has slowed the job up


Got 4x 100l troughs and 8x micros due for delivery today..... so more toys to look at

I finally rang Laura Wier - Kiwitech.
sh!t, she's switched on!

She sent some rough quotes - just based on 100 ha, 4 25ha systems (we've around 43ha, so we'll look at 7 6ha systems, to improve our ability to run more cattle mobs: we could run 2 mobs of herefords, 2 mobs of friesians, 2 mobs of Specks and a mob of heifers, for example.

Interestingly my own rough workings out and costs aren't too far from the mark, got a really good price on our pipe. Also we can scrounge all the wire we'll need, and probably also 100 micros from our mate up the way.
So I sent away the map, and my draft designs to Laura, she's going to mull it over this evening and get back to me.
We'll survey it properly, just as you guys have done, and then we'll get it done (first port of call, get the existing fences rolled up) over the summer.
Hopefully the chap can survey us soon, as then I can get the pipework done and in use, the rest is minor compared to the water.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

I finally rang Laura Wier - Kiwitech.
sh!t, she's switched on!

She sent some rough quotes - just based on 100 ha, 4 25ha systems (we've around 43ha, so we'll look at 7 6ha systems, to improve our ability to run more cattle mobs: we could run 2 mobs of herefords, 2 mobs of friesians, 2 mobs of Specks and a mob of heifers, for example.

Interestingly my own rough workings out and costs aren't too far from the mark, got a really good price on our pipe. Also we can scrounge all the wire we'll need, and probably also 100 micros from our mate up the way.
So I sent away the map, and my draft designs to Laura, she's going to mull it over this evening and get back to me.
We'll survey it properly, just as you guys have done, and then we'll get it done (first port of call, get the existing fences rolled up) over the summer.
Hopefully the chap can survey us soon, as then I can get the pipework done and in use, the rest is minor compared to the water.

And then we can come and see it all to see what we need to do when we move

 

[Kiwi Pete]

And then we can come and see it all to see what we need to do when we move

You already know how it will be - the bare essentials, in the right place, at the right time
As I said before, I came up with a plan that suited the land, the cattle and the farmer; but that's carrying considerable prejudice due to farming it for these last few years.
What I'm hoping to gain from the surveying and "proper design" is something less limited by my prejudice - rather than subconciously "going easy" on some places, Laura is only looking at an outline on a map on a computer screen.

Their costings, based on a two wire system and all the trimmings, ranges from about NZ$550-800/ha. This includes everything, from design and surveying, to posts and tools - much of it isn't relevant to our needs.
We don't need gateways, as our tall-grass grazing will require heaps of pogos.
We don't need spools and temp fencing, either, as we've got that side of things covered.

Our install should be much less, which will free up capital for attending the course, based on @NZDan's (and other's) reports the techno-course is well worth the time and money.

So that's the situation at this stage.

I was about "this close" to just pulling the money out of my bank to pay for it, and then had a message from a chap (Mr Richardson, from Avalon genetics) keen to buy my aerator/airseeder unit - so that will fund it instead.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Loving the fact the WWF have got behind regen ag with this video featuring Gabe. We need the environmental bodies to start recognising the importance of livestock in "sustainable" (regenerative) agriculture.

Just need the courage to post this in the main section of the forum.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Good luck!


I've found the public to be really supportive of the conservation/regen ag message, not so much farmers as they are hard-wired to become defensive when their methods are questioned.
However the public are becoming really interested in differentiation of production methods, so it's great to see other channels picking up the ball .

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Good luck!


I've found the public to be really supportive of the conservation/regen ag message, not so much farmers as they are hard-wired to become defensive when their methods are questioned.
However the public are becoming really interested in differentiation of production methods, so it's great to see other channels picking up the ball .

Well I've gone for the "easy" option and posted it in the "farming is part of the solution" thread.?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

It's all about creating "the teachable moment" and creating more questions than answers given. That's where learning, discussion comes from.

 

[Yale]

View attachment 833813
It's all about creating "the teachable moment" and creating more questions than answers given. That's where learning, discussion comes from.

Helluva job to find anything when you’ve dropped something in that long grass.

 

[Bury the Trash]

Helluva job to find anything when you’ve dropped something in that long grass.

....Hes looking for that 50 c that he dropped

 

[NZDan]

You already know how it will be - the bare essentials, in the right place, at the right time
As I said before, I came up with a plan that suited the land, the cattle and the farmer; but that's carrying considerable prejudice due to farming it for these last few years.
What I'm hoping to gain from the surveying and "proper design" is something less limited by my prejudice - rather than subconciously "going easy" on some places, Laura is only looking at an outline on a map on a computer screen.

Their costings, based on a two wire system and all the trimmings, ranges from about NZ$550-800/ha. This includes everything, from design and surveying, to posts and tools - much of it isn't relevant to our needs.
We don't need gateways, as our tall-grass grazing will require heaps of pogos.
We don't need spools and temp fencing, either, as we've got that side of things covered.

Our install should be much less, which will free up capital for attending the course, based on @NZDan's (and other's) reports the techno-course is well worth the time and money.

So that's the situation at this stage.

I was about "this close" to just pulling the money out of my bank to pay for it, and then had a message from a chap (Mr Richardson, from Avalon genetics) keen to buy my aerator/airseeder unit - so that will fund it instead.

Yes the course is well worth the time and money, BUTTT, do the course before you get to far down the planning and purchasing route, you will change your mind on some things after you do the course.
My thoughts.....
Strongly consider a bike kit for shifting temp fences, infact just get one.
I wish I'd used all 1.6mm wire, the 2.5mm stuff is a pain and I keep breaking it.
The plastic wedge wire clips are much much better than the metal or wire ones.
The stock rod is a must have for cattle.
Make sure you buy the right sized gate thongs for the posts you're using
If Harry says to do some thing and you think he's wrong, it is probably you that is wrong and him that is right, I've learnt that the hard way he is nearly always right.
I've an Arrow post driver if you want to borrow it, but I might need to borrow the post rammer pilot that you're going to buy............

 

[unlacedgecko]

https://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-3139.pdf

 

[Henarar]

....Hes looking for that 50 c that he dropped

He is so tight it hit him on the head

 

[Farmer Roy]

Loving the fact the WWF have got behind regen ag with this video featuring Gabe. We need the environmental bodies to start recognising the importance of livestock in "sustainable" (regenerative) agriculture.

Just need the courage to post this in the main section of the forum.

Nothing is more fun than posting something “controversial” in the mainstream section, I have found
Sit back & watch the indignation, denial, anger & attacks
Then - either laugh



or cry . . .

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Yes the course is well worth the time and money, BUTTT, do the course before you get to far down the planning and purchasing route, you will change your mind on some things after you do the course.
My thoughts.....
Strongly consider a bike kit for shifting temp fences, infact just get one.
I wish I'd used all 1.6mm wire, the 2.5mm stuff is a pain and I keep breaking it.
The plastic wedge wire clips are much much better than the metal or wire ones.
The stock rod is a must have for cattle.
Make sure you buy the right sized gate thongs for the posts you're using
If Harry says to do some thing and you think he's wrong, it is probably you that is wrong and him that is right, I've learnt that the hard way he is nearly always right.
I've an Arrow post driver if you want to borrow it, but I might need to borrow the post rammer pilot that you're going to buy............

Some great advice there, what I'm hoping is that I can jump into a course that coincides with my next trip to the North Island, which will effectively mean the NZ fire service subs my trip (and it halves the C footprint).
My contact at Ardlussa has a spare rammer, but thanks very much for your offer.
The postdriver pilot- do you mean for submerging microtroughs? Andrew has one, I'll see what we can arrange there.

Great advice re the bike kit, I think we're still leaning towards just creating the cells and leaving them in place, so temp fencing possibly won't really be used very much at all - other than the weeks when we have sheep, and then it will be crucial to have it.

My mate that I mentioned, has literally 20 times the wire we'll need, as he went from 3 wires back to one when his sheep left - but it's the older, stiffer wire to what you'll have used? He said that the newer stuff is much nicer to knot. It's all 1.6mm, AFAIK. He's also got 130 micro's that he's keen to offload to us, I think he said he bought 2000 in one hit to get an even sharper discount

My main "rush" is to buy the pipe we'll need, before the rising crude price jumps up the price of poly pipe, we found the best price was through Farm Source, they came back with better prices than Hynds, Humes, or Farmlands could offer (with PGW last, almost 40% higher).

What did you use for posts, ie wooden end posts - I want to use our existing ones which are mainly those quarter-round jobs, can you see that being an issue? Or is a round post more suitable, do you think?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

....Hes looking for that 50 c that he dropped

He is so tight it hit him on the head

You can go off folk, ya know! ?

We were actually just posing for the picture, PrimaryITO is going to do a feature on yours truly about the benefits of training, and goal-setting getting us where we want to be.
I did tell the lady just what I thought of their pasture management course's flaws, but we agreed that it was not the time nor place to discuss that - she did however lap up the regenerative/conservation/HM angle of what we're doing here.

 

[NZDan]

Some great advice there, what I'm hoping is that I can jump into a course that coincides with my next trip to the North Island, which will effectively mean the NZ fire service subs my trip (and it halves the C footprint).
My contact at Ardlussa has a spare rammer, but thanks very much for your offer.
The postdriver pilot- do you mean for submerging microtroughs? Andrew has one, I'll see what we can arrange there.

Great advice re the bike kit, I think we're still leaning towards just creating the cells and leaving them in place, so temp fencing possibly won't really be used very much at all - other than the weeks when we have sheep, and then it will be crucial to have it.

My mate that I mentioned, has literally 20 times the wire we'll need, as he went from 3 wires back to one when his sheep left - but it's the older, stiffer wire to what you'll have used? He said that the newer stuff is much nicer to knot. It's all 1.6mm, AFAIK. He's also got 130 micro's that he's keen to offload to us, I think he said he bought 2000 in one hit to get an even sharper discount

My main "rush" is to buy the pipe we'll need, before the rising crude price jumps up the price of poly pipe, we found the best price was through Farm Source, they came back with better prices than Hynds, Humes, or Farmlands could offer (with PGW last, almost 40% higher).

What did you use for posts, ie wooden end posts - I want to use our existing ones which are mainly those quarter-round jobs, can you see that being an issue? Or is a round post more suitable, do you think?

The post rammer pilot is for putting Arrow posts into hard ground, very useful for summer/stoney fencing but quite expensive.
My thoughts are that the flexibility of the cells is critical so leaving cells set up removes that flexibility, having said that none of the Landcorp farms had what they call a Techno cell system set up 200 1ha paddocks, all perfectly square in a grid pattern, no gates and portable troughs, they use it for heifers as there is not the big mob issues with heifers vs bulls.
1.6mm makes the whole job easier and cheaper, springs are cheaper, erection is easier....
Pipe was the expensive bit, we went for Turf valves rather than Techno fittings, getting pipes right is a must as they're a bit hard to change if you get it wrong.
I used proper strainers, but we've 4 wires (2 x 2.5mm and 2 x 1.6mm). A single starnd of 1.6mm should e OK with decent 1/4 rounds. The Gate handle strainer seems expensive but are well worth it, really worth it.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

The post rammer pilot is for putting Arrow posts into hard ground, very useful for summer/stoney fencing but quite expensive.
My thoughts are that the flexibility of the cells is critical so leaving cells set up removes that flexibility, having said that none of the Landcorp farms had what they call a Techno cell system set up 200 1ha paddocks, all perfectly square in a grid pattern, no gates and portable troughs, they use it for heifers as there is not the big mob issues with heifers vs bulls.
1.6mm makes the whole job easier and cheaper, springs are cheaper, erection is easier....
Pipe was the expensive bit, we went for Turf valves rather than Techno fittings, getting pipes right is a must as they're a bit hard to change if you get it wrong.
I used proper strainers, but we've 4 wires (2 x 2.5mm and 2 x 1.6mm). A single starnd of 1.6mm should e OK with decent 1/4 rounds. The Gate handle strainer seems expensive but are well worth it, really worth it.

Did you use MDPE or alkathene pipe for your system?
I've been running a couple of ideas around, one is to save money using alkathene and using more larger 32/40mm piping; the other is to go with MDPE and use more 25mm. Either will flow the same at the last trough in the line, and with micros only one animal is drinking at a time.
(I'm not so worried about kinking, as they'll not be moved or buggered about with, and these tees seem to have an equally good hold of both).

I'm a bit unsure now whether you had an existing water system or completely redid it.

Yeah, that's pretty true what you said about the flexibility, for me varying cell sizes simply means varying stocking density, hence why I'm leaning the other way.
I was looking at 540 x .08ha per cell for a while, think now we'll set up 420 x .1ha cells - with a view to subdivide in half again when I properly retire from my day job.

I thought 200 tonne LWT/ha was doing great things, until I had a few experiments at 400 and 600 tonne/ha - it's almost getting into the league of what a couple of cowboys on horseback can achieve with a herd

 

[exmoor dave]

@NZDan out of interest what is a Turf valve?

I'm putting in kiwitech hydrants on one system, plasson hydrants in other places and i might give long drag pipes a try too.

I've not got the knack of the kiwitech hydrants yet, on a few occasions I've had the spring and little plastic o ring all pop out the valve.
Thats using MDPE (blue pipe), it will be interesting to see if the black pipe on the 100l troughs is better, I believe that pipe is LDPE?



The plasson hydrants are extremely easy to use....so easy I think cattle would probably be able to disconnect them.

 

[Tyedyetom]

Did you use MDPE or alkathene pipe for your system?
I've been running a couple of ideas around, one is to save money using alkathene and using more larger 32/40mm piping; the other is to go with MDPE and use more 25mm. Either will flow the same at the last trough in the line, and with micros only one animal is drinking at a time.
(I'm not so worried about kinking, as they'll not be moved or buggered about with, and these tees seem to have an equally good hold of both).

I'm a bit unsure now whether you had an existing water system or completely redid it.

Yeah, that's pretty true what you said about the flexibility, for me varying cell sizes simply means varying stocking density, hence why I'm leaning the other way.
I was looking at 540 x .08ha per cell for a while, think now we'll set up 420 x .1ha cells - with a view to subdivide in half again when I properly retire from my day job.

I thought 200 tonne LWT/ha was doing great things, until I had a few experiments at 400 and 600 tonne/ha - it's almost getting into the league of what a couple of cowboys on horseback can achieve with a herd

What else did you see with 400 and 600 ton/ha? Was the recovery time longer?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

What else did you see with 400 and 600 ton/ha? Was the recovery time longer?

No, actually quite the opposite because I had so much better control of their graze.

It's still "a time thing", of course, you can't leave them like that for 2 days, but it had such an amazing effect because they don't have time to select (or graze too low).

The easiest way to describe it was it changed their behaviour from "no, I'm just browsing, thanks" to an armed robbery, snatch and grab type of grazing.
Completely non-selective, and a week later the cocksfoot and red clover was 6 inches tall again. In winter!

So it really emphasised that there is always a little toothpaste in the tube when it comes to stocking density - and that I need much better tools to work with