"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[holwellcourtfarm]

You are so right. This TB situation that we are in is probably one of the single biggest factors holding back the industry, both arable and livestock.
As a dairy producer, we generate roughly 250 beef sired calves/year. I would love to team up with an arable farmer who wants a serious mob of grazing cattle to compliment their system, but every time it's the risk of a rogue TB test that holds the deal back. If nothing else, it's the regulations on restricting grazing that limits options.
Everyone is losing out.

Perhaps our best argument for reform of our bTB approach might be the environmental impact it creates?

If we can prove that it is damaging the landscape ecology that might carry more political clout these days.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Perhaps our best argument for reform of outs bTB approach might be the environmental impact it creates?

If we can prove that it is damaging the landscape ecology that might carry more political clout these days.

Sadly, I think you're right in saying that

At least our 'cute, furry' vectors are quite obvious in the damage done to the environment as a whole, from both the zoonotic angle and also the damage to native species - easy to justify trapping or shooting deer and possums with public support

 

[onesiedale]

(Grant funded) portable handling facility?

Welcome home btw, I was wondering if this actually come back!

And there's the problem
Throw a grant at it and it helps manage TB.

 

[exmoor dave]

(Grant funded) portable handling facility?

Welcome home btw, I was wondering if you'd actually come back!

Haha! Yeah back....had to hit the ground running with a few solid sheep days including scanning.
Sad to leave NZ, thoroughly enjoyed it in south island.


We handle the cattle through a mobile system, but used in various yards and permanent pens, it would need a hell of a lot of hurdles to be truly useable "in field"..... and a considerable flat area to deploy.
Its ok walking stock back to the yards/pens, just abit of a pain when you've got a nice rotation going

 

[JohnGalway]

What if any are my options for itchy sheep if I'd prefer not to use pour on or dip? Thinking of life beneath the soil too.

(Note, I will dip if no other options for welfare reasons)

 

[Doc]

I’ve seen a few Astro turf cow tracks and read about many more. On wet ground I think they are hard to beat where heavy cow traffic is inevitable. They do need careful construction and minimal wheeled traffic.
one neighbour tried wood chip but it disintegrated too quickly into a mush.

Itchy sheep- I would recommend Doramectin twice a fortnight apart and double fence. Moxidectin is probably preferable if you don’t use foot vax and are concerned about drug persistence, see link below. Treat and quarantine any bought in sheep.
There is documented Doramectin resistance in P Ovis now. Another tool blunted by misuse.

A review on the effect of macrocyclic lactones on dung-dwelling insects: Toxicity of macrocyclic lactones to dung beetles

Avermectins and milbemycins are commonly used in agro-ecosystems for the control of parasites in domestic livestock. As integral members of agro-ecosystems with importance in maintaining pasture health through dung burial behaviour, dung beetles are an ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Poorbuthappy]

I’ve seen a few Astro turf cow tracks and read about many more. On wet ground I think they are hard to beat where heavy cow traffic is inevitable. They do need careful construction and minimal wheeled traffic.
one neighbour tried wood chip but it disintegrated too quickly into a mush.

Itchy sheep- I would recommend Doramectin twice a fortnight apart and double fence. Moxidectin is probably preferable if you don’t use foot vax and are concerned about drug persistence, see link below. Treat and quarantine any bought in sheep.
There is documented Doramectin resistance in P Ovis now. Another tool blunted by misuse.

A review on the effect of macrocyclic lactones on dung-dwelling insects: Toxicity of macrocyclic lactones to dung beetles

Avermectins and milbemycins are commonly used in agro-ecosystems for the control of parasites in domestic livestock. As integral members of agro-ecosystems with importance in maintaining pasture health through dung burial behaviour, dung beetles are an ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

He hasn't said lice or scab though

 

[Samcowman]

Talking it over with you the other week and seeing what you're doing was abit of a light bulb moment for me, I'd already been thinking that the amount of breeding stock we are carrying here is a major stumbling block to our wintering capacity.

You put it well in your last paragraph, there is abit of sentimentality, but overwhelmingly its inflexibility.
A good example of this is us finishing all our cattle, we devised a plan (or more had the reality of long term TB Force us to get our planning caps on), we've got our plan in place, we've mega improved our skills at finishing cattle in the last 3 years.
But we're now really inflexible (in big part to tb restrictions) because we're always carrying alot of cattle of all classes, our plan is always at least a year in advance because we've got to assume we'll still be under restrictions (IMO too many people have brushes with TB but continue to always plan for the best rather than hope for the best but plan for the worse, then get in a world of pain when they get hit by a breakdown in the autumn when they need to destock).

Which then neatly leads to your point about moving stock to feed rather than feed to stock..... like how apparently it used to be (according to dad), here we are finishing cattle on two upland farms, using bought in concentrates, while there's hundreds of thousands of acres of good lowland arable ground that could do the job miles better.
But it's treading a fine line pushing the idea, because we (as hill farmers) don't want to see breeding stock established in arable country.

I’ve heard good things about your stock through a mutual acquaintance PJ from Farmmark. Assuming I have the right person!!!! There’s always finishing space up here!!!

Its that 60 day routine that really screws the job.

Work with it on your holistic grazing plan. Had to work around it in the middle of the summer this year. Did a quick hopscotch through the rotation on the strongest paddocks to get them back to where I needed them. The hardest bit is holding them for 3 days for both jabbing and reading. Just have to sacrifice a bit.

 

[Woolless]

What if any are my options for itchy sheep if I'd prefer not to use pour on or dip? Thinking of life beneath the soil too.

(Note, I will dip if no other options for welfare reasons)

Get the cause of the pruritis accurately diagnosed first and go from there.

 

[JohnGalway]

Get the cause of the pruritis accurately diagnosed first and go from there.

It's most likely lice, I know dip will shift it. What I'm wondering about is non chemical treatments, if they exist.

 

[Doc]

It's most likely lice, I know dip will shift it. What I'm wondering about is non chemical treatments, if they exist.

Sorry folks, I saw ‘itchy’ and thought scab. It’s the default problem around here. We often see Lice on the sticky tape test, or just visually with a magnifying glass, they are easy to diagnose. But, mainly it’s scab with or without lice. My experience is that skin scrapings for mites need several samples from several sheep. False negative in about 30% as one off sheep samples.
Lice are easy to treat with a pyrethroid pour on. No effect on soil/environment as far as I’m aware. It’s derived from chrysanthemums originally. An OP dip would be not ‘my’ first choice for lice. Hammer to crack a nut.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Sorry folks, I saw ‘itchy’ and thought scab. It’s the default problem around here. We often see Lice on the sticky tape test, or just visually with a magnifying glass, they are easy to diagnose. But, mainly it’s scab with or without lice. My experience is that skin scrapings for mites need several samples from several sheep. False negative in about 30% as one off sheep samples.
Lice are easy to treat with a pyrethroid pour on. No effect on soil/environment as far as I’m aware. It’s derived from chrysanthemums originally. An OP dip would be not ‘my’ first choice for lice. Hammer to crack a nut.

Pour on not that effective though on full fleece. Really need treating off shears.

 

[Doc]

Pour on works against lice well with full fleece. I suggest two treatments 2 weeks apart. Will allow egg hatch to nymph. Cheap too. Don’t forget to treat ALL at same time.

 

[Blaithin]

If you can get a protocol going that doesn’t include pour on you can benefit your soil biome. Residues in manure have been found ridiculous long periods of time after pour on use. It’s rather hard on dung beetles and other insect life in the soil.

I know of some people who cull hard for parasites so that their herd is more resistant to infections.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Pour on works against lice well with full fleece. I suggest two treatments 2 weeks apart. Will allow egg hatch to nymph. Cheap too. Don’t forget to treat ALL at same time.

Not trying to be argumentative, but that's not what my vet says.

 

[Doc]

Not trying to be argumentative, but that's not what my vet says.

That’s ok. I’m not arguing with you either, I maybe would with your Vet though.
He (or you) is maybe confusing action against fly larvae as a ‘one off‘ application off shears and louse treatment Protocol. They are different.
There is no evidence pour on pyrethrum (as permethrin) affects the soil microbes. Why would it, unless you were neglectful in application. It’s not systemically absorbed When applied as per data sheet.

 

[Blaithin]

That’s ok. I’m not arguing with you either, I maybe would with your Vet though.
He (or you) is maybe confusing action against fly larvae as a ‘one off‘ application off shears and louse treatment Protocol. They are different.
There is no evidence pour on pyrethrum (as permethrin) affects the soil microbes. Why would it, unless you were neglectful in application. It’s not systemically absorbed When applied as per data sheet.

Your pour ons may be different. It’s a very generalized term here but most of them are some form of -mectin. Ivermectin, Bimectin, etc. and they absolutely are absorbed. That’s why there are meat withdrawals on the labels. For Ivomec it’s 51 days.

Boss is the main permethrin one here and while it doesn’t have a withdrawal time past one day it’s also the more expensive option. The -mectins are generally cheaper and provide worming as well, which is what alters the insects in the soil.

Cydectin is the only pour on that does internal and external parasites and doesn’t have a withdrawal period. That I know of anyway.

Either way, you can’t say pour on here and assume it’s an external parasite only product. Many of them are for internal use and are systemically absorbed.

 

[Bury the Trash]

Cypermethrin for lice on sheep. It's an SP

Slightly safer than an OP so they say but still somewhat unknown in how it will affect people.

Not keen on shearing after it's been put on I must admit.


But its effective and easy to apply.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

That’s ok. I’m not arguing with you either, I maybe would with your Vet though.
He (or you) is maybe confusing action against fly larvae as a ‘one off‘ application off shears and louse treatment Protocol. They are different.
There is no evidence pour on pyrethrum (as permethrin) affects the soil microbes. Why would it, unless you were neglectful in application. It’s not systemically absorbed When applied as per data sheet.

No confusion on his part.
Not sure the relevance of your last para to my post though.?

 

[Bury the Trash]

Not trying to be argumentative, but that's not what my vet says.

Ir it still works on a longer fleece , just takes a lot longer I remember doing them in January, took until they had lambed and been kicked out for sometime before they stopped itching, never seen it before or after since funnily enough famous last words.