"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Karliboy]

Would this be a waste of time/seed

I suppose it all comes down to the weather if we get a spring like this year gone I’d like to think you would be ok but if we got some late frost/snow and it had germinated it could quite easily burn off.
I put a fair lump off seed in in early September 2018 but I don’t think I’ve gained anything from it really. If I do any in future it will always be in the spring but at what point I’m not sure as I worry about the new seed being outcompeted by older grass as I always get a spring explosion of grass with being warm low down south facing farm but very wet
But like you I am also considering some herbal lay for next year

Are you beef or dairy out off interest ?

 

[Doc]

I’m beef Karl. I’ll get some more sheep in 2020 though for balance. I sold them all 2 years ago as we have been doing building works/barn conversions and with a full time other job running another business it was all too much. So I’ve just been grass renting in winter with neighbours sheep. Couldn’t part with cattle though and I find them easy to fit in.
I was worried about March temps and a bit of snow too for seeds. We are on the moor edge and 1000’ high. Last reseeding we did (5yrs ago) was the full shebang- plough, power Harrow, drill and roll on 30acres which I now mow twice. PRG and white clover. It eventually worked well and I’ve added Timothy since by broadcast after sheep with some small success. The rest is all pp. I wouldn’t plough here again though as we wrecked a few old stone field drains and after being on here and learning a bit I think the cons outweigh the pros on many levels.
I’ve only put FYM and a bit of slurry on for the last 5 years.
I keep looking at the swards posted on here with envy. If I did one of those vertical Welly boot shots you’d see a rim of mud and a grass sward like a 12 year olds chin at the moment. This is where the Savoury theories just don’t fit. We are in no danger of desertification rather the seasonal dormancy of growth married to high rainfall on clay based soil soon makes porridge and cattle outside just look hungry and miserable. I destock them to my shed which is a fertiliser factory of sorts. Unfortunately this year it’s not stopped raining since last cut so I’ve not had chance to get muck out since.
Might kick the sheep off in January now...

 

[Karliboy]

Beef here too and likewise work full time
I probably should read more books but seldom have time apart from popping on here for reading.
I’ve often thought off getting a few sheep in on tack for winter as I can grow grass relatively well but it just wouldn’t have worked this year it’s been so wet. Last winter would have been ideal though.
Cows were in 2 weeks early this year so like you say I’ve got my fertiliser plant well and truly running.
One thing I’m trying this winter is throwing a bucket or two of soil in with some worms to the weekly mucking out effort just to see what happens which has been talked about on here along with some composted leaves etc out off a wood.
I currently wrestling with deciding if I should change my system from normally selling this seasons calves at £x now or winter them then sacrifice my mowing ground next summer split it up with electric and grow them on and buy in all next winters fodder instead of the 75% that I do now. But then I have the issue that weaned calves/young stores are fetching good money compared to bigger/older store cattle so will that pay for the extra fodder I need for keeping them longer.
It is only a hobby for me off 20 cattle plus calves but I’ll be buggered if I’m supporting it off my own back at current prices.
(I don’t get the sub check)
Currently in the process of getting rid off some off the big dairy cross cows for something a little smaller in the hope they don’t do as much damage when conditions are delicate and eat just as much.

Maybe we should get together one day and visit @onesiedale your only about 40 mins from me. We can start the northern group off.

 

[Sharpy]

I’m beef Karl. I’ll get some more sheep in 2020 though for balance. I sold them all 2 years ago as we have been doing building works/barn conversions and with a full time other job running another business it was all too much. So I’ve just been grass renting in winter with neighbours sheep. Couldn’t part with cattle though and I find them easy to fit in.
I was worried about March temps and a bit of snow too for seeds. We are on the moor edge and 1000’ high. Last reseeding we did (5yrs ago) was the full shebang- plough, power Harrow, drill and roll on 30acres which I now mow twice. PRG and white clover. It eventually worked well and I’ve added Timothy since by broadcast after sheep with some small success. The rest is all pp. I wouldn’t plough here again though as we wrecked a few old stone field drains and after being on here and learning a bit I think the cons outweigh the pros on many levels.
I’ve only put FYM and a bit of slurry on for the last 5 years.
I keep looking at the swards posted on here with envy. If I did one of those vertical Welly boot shots you’d see a rim of mud and a grass sward like a 12 year olds chin at the moment. This is where the Savoury theories just don’t fit. We are in no danger of desertification rather the seasonal dormancy of growth married to high rainfall on clay based soil soon makes porridge and cattle outside just look hungry and miserable. I destock them to my shed which is a fertiliser factory of sorts. Unfortunately this year it’s not stopped raining since last cut so I’ve not had chance to get muck out since.
Might kick the sheep off in January now...

Regarding seed being "wasted"
When you plough a field round here there is an often an explosion of redshank. None in the previous sward, last ploughed 40 years before. That seed sat there, ready to go, all that time. If some of your broadcast seed doesn't germinate this year, it probably will next year. And another thing, (not directed at you or anyone in particular) if you need to roundup a sward before ploughing to ensure your new seed takes properly either you can't plough worth a damm, or you are using poor/wrong seed. If the new variety is so much better than the old then it will outcompete it. If it can't its not worth doing.
(The same applies to direct drilling in my opinion, lackadaisical timing and techniques are hidden by checking the competition)

 

[Bury the Trash]

I'm about to give up. Another inch of rain due tonorrow. Going to be moving one lamb mob into the barn in the next couple of days. Never had to do this before. Fields getting a mess, although I'm not so worried about that, as can mitigate and improve soil, but more importantly animal condition going backwards, and it's a hell of a lot of work hauling hay and cake to them.

Don't understand how everyone else can be so chirpy. It's proper grim. May destock another mob jn a couple of weeks into a barn. But for now trying to keep the remaining two mobs out.

Yeah its not good you have my sympathies , being responsible for livestock in difficult conditions can be depressing. Taking one day at a time is how ive always got through real difficult patches and spring will come , eventually.
the way ive always worked winter is to only keep a stocking rate that the place will cope with in the wettest of winters and ie had a few in the 40 odd years of sheepfarming.
Either buy winter grass keep from dairy farms or keep less is the answer, as i don't consider housing or yarding sheep , never have. sheep do best outdoors.
we are also lucky in that with half light half heavy farm we can grow root, kale or the likes of fodder beet to help.
dry hard cold never worries me as much as constant days of wet which we have had sine sept. but like i say not different to a lot of other winters here over the years being as this is a maritme climate and wide open to s.westerlys.
your own experience is the best way to learn about your own plot.
this is how local knowledge passed down from local elders is good , well some of it

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Autumn is the time down here, Doc. Late summer, if you know reasonably surely it'll get a dunk of rain on it, as we don't have reliable frost anymore the winter seeding job is really just hope, and of course cheap seed helps ease the pain if it doesn't come away.
Looking at herbal ley prices on here I wouldn't.

Any particular species you really want to see?
Obv. if you're underwater then red clover, lucerne and chicory are going to have a hard time, I'd probably just get a few kg of this and that and "suck it and see", as longevity of some plants is wholly management dependent.

I've yet to see a place where plantain won't flourish, but again it can be grazed into the ground quite quickly with lack of care, whereas cocksfoot almost seems to like you for weakening the competition

So bearing those in mind, it may be a waste of money buying a mix, I think @Treg said basically this a while back

 

[NZDan]

Rob Havard was asked about hay "storage" today at BioFarm19. Tight centred bales from a modern baler, net wrap that goes to the edges, extra wraps if you can get that done, stored on their round with the flat sides together forming a long tube on the sheltered side of a hedge from prevailing winds. Think he said the rain may get at the outside 2 inches, perhaps more in a v wet year or a wetter location than his.

I've stored hay like that for 2-3 years with out much issue.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Regarding seed being "wasted"
When you plough a field round here there is an often an explosion of redshank. None in the previous sward, last ploughed 40 years before. That seed sat there, ready to go, all that time. If some of your broadcast seed doesn't germinate this year, it probably will next year. And another thing, (not directed at you or anyone in particular) if you need to roundup a sward before ploughing to ensure your new seed takes properly either you can't plough worth a damm, or you are using poor/wrong seed. If the new variety is so much better than the old then it will outcompete it. If it can't its not worth doing.
(The same applies to direct drilling in my opinion, lackadaisical timing and techniques are hidden by checking the competition)

Spot on, John

There's a fine example right out my driver's window, why is Barry's 5 year old paddock dominated by sweet vernal and crested dogstail?
It gets lime and super every January, so the soil is sweet to grow clover and everything else

Bur his management means that only the tough survive, ie not all plants get to express themselves, but these ones do.
Otherwise all the stuff he drilled 5 years ago would be halfway to your knee

Over time, it'd be interesting to know just how many hundredweight of sweet vernal/crested dogstail seed is laid down, and he's going to beat that with a plough and a few pounds of seeds?
Delusion must be expensive

 

[Doc]

We, and my neighbours who have done the full reseed, usually get an explosion of chickweed. You then have to use a broadleaf herbicide to allow your seeds to get a chance.
Not great for the clover though.
It’s why I said ‘eventually’ in my post with the pasture establishment. So it requires another pass with a tractor and sprayer, spraying a legume killer, just to make your already intensive and expensive efforts turn out. I did have to overseed with more white clover after a year as I think a lot of the drilled was wiped out. I used a medium leaf variety, Violin, which now is the bulk of the clover in the sward.
I now suspect it’s all a lot of BS of post war dogma with the methodology of plough reseeding and there will be cheaper, easier, perhaps not as ‘oven ready’ ways, to achieve introduction of plant species you want, whichever they are, which will be more sympathetic, less costly (£ and soil health) and ultimately just as successful.
I am aiming to introduce some plantain, trefoil, sanfoin and red clover.
I rent some river flat land which is more free draining, lower down and may have a go at Lucerne there. I’ve left it this and last year as Landlord has planning permission pending for industrial units.

 

[Rob Garrett]

Spot on, JohnView attachment 848374
There's a fine example right out my driver's window, why is Barry's 5 year old paddock dominated by sweet vernal and crested dogstail?
It gets lime and super every January, so the soil is sweet to grow clover and everything else

Bur his management means that only the tough survive, ie not all plants get to express themselves, but these ones do.
Otherwise all the stuff he drilled 5 years ago would be halfway to your knee

Over time, it'd be interesting to know just how many hundredweight of sweet vernal/crested dogstail seed is laid down, and he's going to beat that with a plough and a few pounds of seeds?
Delusion must be expensive

"The flora of a temporary pasture depends far more on the method of management than on the mixture sown" Voisin, Grass Productivity. Part 9 - rational grazing transforms the flora.

Lots of examples of how different flora preform under different grazing management systems, interesting stuff and makes sense, even if it is a bit hard reading!

I have established Herbal Leys under a spring pea/barley nurse crop when doing a full reseed in the past, good plant diversity but only get left with Yarrow, Plantain, chicory, white clover & most of the grasses and the seed is hellish expensive. If only we could buy seed straight from the grower in NZ ???????? for a lot less money of course!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

"The flora of a temporary pasture depends far more on the method of management than on the mixture sown" Voisin, Grass Productivity. Part 9 - rational grazing transforms the flora.

Lots of examples of how different flora preform under different grazing management systems, interesting stuff and makes sense, even if it is a bit hard reading!

I have established Herbal Leys under a spring pea/barley nurse crop when doing a full reseed in the past, good plant diversity but only get left with Yarrow, Plantain, chicory, white clover & most of the grasses and the seed is hellish expensive. If only we could buy seed straight from the grower in NZ ???????? for a lot less money of course!

I'm trying a slightly interesting approach, hence my multispecies reseed in '5 Gates'
Name of the paddock gives the game away, really, the idea is to manage this one with "kids gloves" and haul the seed away in the bellies of the cattle.

We'll see how that goes.... if a success then there are plenty of other places for a "chaos garden" around the boundaries, the only species missing is trefoil/lotus, but it's already in the soil.

 

[Treg]

Autumn is the time down here, Doc. Late summer, if you know reasonably surely it'll get a dunk of rain on it, as we don't have reliable frost anymore the winter seeding job is really just hope, and of course cheap seed helps ease the pain if it doesn't come away.
Looking at herbal ley prices on here I wouldn't.

Any particular species you really want to see?
Obv. if you're underwater then red clover, lucerne and chicory are going to have a hard time, I'd probably just get a few kg of this and that and "suck it and see", as longevity of some plants is wholly management dependent.

I've yet to see a place where plantain won't flourish, but again it can be grazed into the ground quite quickly with lack of care, whereas cocksfoot almost seems to like you for weakening the competition

So bearing those in mind, it may be a waste of money buying a mix, I think @Treg said basically this a while back

Crikey that was a while ago, full herbal leys are expensive & your paying for a lot of seeds that may not suit your area/ soil type.
Most seed firms are happy to add herbs at a small cost to their existing leys.
I mainly add plantain & chicory to leys & they both do well here.
BUT... I tried several herbal leys when I first went Organic & all that would grow herb wise was plantain & chicory so that's why their the ones I have added. I bought a herbal mix from Cotswolds seeds & added that to a Rye grass / clover mix & several different herbs that haven't grown here before are now growing well
I think 2 dry summers have probably helped the less competitive plants become established? Birdsfoot Trefoil I tried several times but would never see any but is now well established in several fields including ones that were never seeded with it.
Yarrow & sheeps parsley doing well in a couple of fields & last year lesser napweed did well in one field.
I tried overseeding several times with not much success but this year spread seed before the cows grazed a field & just let them trample it in , best overseeding I've done.
I liked the video that I think @Poorbuthappy shared ages ago with the local to me Mr Mead , he had a tub of seed in each field & just spread a handful every time he check the cows.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

May have posted it before, but when I dd'd some herbal ley stuff into an existing sward during the summer, I had masses of yarrow come through. But I didn't put any harrow in the mix! Not really seen it before in the field though - perhaps because it's not had chance to express itself.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

That's worked best here, so far, spreading it right before putting stock on.
I do wonder just how much goes through them rather than being "planted" underfoot.

I'd like to jack up my little spinner on the rear carrier of my farm bike, would make it very topheavy though, and use it daily when we're moving 4 x

 

[Poorbuthappy]

That's worked best here, so far, spreading it right before putting stock on.
I do wonder just how much goes through them rather than being "planted" underfoot.

I'd like to jack up my little spinner on the rear carrier of my farm bike, would make it very topheavy though, and use it daily when we're moving 4 x

I've a little Stocks slug pelleter that I have tried a bit, but early days yet.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

love yarrow
The old boy called it "sheep medicine", it fixes things you don't even know are wrong with 'em

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I've a little Stocks slug pelleter that I have tried a bit, but early days yet.

That's basically what mine is, just it's built like a dozer blade as per all C-Dax kit, probably overkill on a wee bike! The worst bit is that fine seed is awfully hard to regulate, hence I sometimes mix it with a bit of something else - boron or selenium prills, or something from the fert store, just to bulk it out

 

[Farmer Roy]

More than 50mm rain, over two storm events nearly 2 weeks ago. Flat black soil, so no runoff. Failed sorghum crop from last year that a neighbour ran cattle on while I was away for 4 months earlier this year.

Bare ground - dry, dusty, no moisture & hard clods. All of that rain has evaporated with subsequent heat & wind. Absolutely no chance of planting anything or any life happening here. 50 + mm of rain completely ineffective

Soil underneath sorghum butts from last year - damp, soft, friable, with that lovely “living” smell black soil has, while the sorghum is starting to regrow & looking fresh
Literally 50 cm ( between rows ) apart

apologies in advance for lack of groundcover. It’s been a bit hard to retain or grow anymore.
It is what it is . . .

 

[Kiwi Pete]

That's what you get when you're 'a leaver' and not 'a taker'.

God bless our plants, for they are all we have between us and eternity

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Got a present

Going to be a long night!