"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Jungle Bill]

And as a side note I would say that the paying for access to the course and therefore the secret workings of the management principles is a major turn off for me and I imagine many others. Seems akin to a pyramid scheme or Scientology and such like.

Although I may have to bring myself to do it in the future

The management principles are not secret, Alan Savory describes them in great detail in his book. The difficult bit is changing how you think about what you are doing, how you make decisions and then applying this on a practical level. It often goes against all we have been taught so we need a bit of help to hold our nerve in the early days.

A well delivered course can help you change the way you think (especially Christopher and @Sheila Cooke) and on a more practical level let you learn from other peoples’ mistakes instead of you having to make them all for yourself.

I also find the people who are prepared to pay, or find a way to get funding, to learn about Holistic Management or listen to the likes of Joel Salatin are a great bunch of like minded people that I really enjoy spending time with and talking things through with long after the course.

 

[Samcowman]

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I think I am at about the same stage of understanding as you. I think it is a good idea and rotational graze but do not know how to go to next stage

Same place here. Rotational graze where possible. My thoughts to take it further would be higher covers and more diversity.
Looking forward to putting 2 groups of cows and calves together once I've taken the bulls out this year. Which will make about 100 cows and their calves together.

 

[ISCO]

What would anyone recommend as a good first book for begginers like myself? Something interesting but not necessarily too technical just to learn basic principles.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I will leave the answer to the book ? to someone with a library of their own - I really don't have an answer.
Most people who have rotational grazing in place are already pretty close from what I've seen, it really comes down to the decision-making process and what guides those decisions, there are some comical "old wives soundbites" about what to do

If you base decisions on any one thing, then it probably is a prejudicial system:
for example not wanting residual covers to go above 1550kg/ha is a prejudice - what happens if we let that happen?
What happens if we don't use the platemeter, or the mower...
What happens if the church bells ring twice and the stock are in the same field?

For me it comes down to gaining an understanding of relationships between the microbes, stock, soil etc and being aware of how my choices impact them

Often the choice to do nothing is made.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Anyone read the article on "prejudice"?

A term often used as an insult or negative connotations, anyway.. but often we find that many our decisions are made from flawed thinking, because of prejudice.

(not to be insulting, just observing)

It is something to consider, when we make decisions about, well, anything really!


Much of the well meant advice on the forum is extremely prejudiced, in my opinion anyway. I see it creep into our lives in all manifestations, probably just because we aren't aware of it, for what it is.

Personally, some of the decisions I make probably fly in the face of popular opinion simply because they aren't prejudiced by the desire to make it about short-term financial gains - I have faith in my belief that my grass will still grow enough without applying stuff to it, then I weigh up the time savings and benefits to the environment, and by looking at the "whole" of grassland management I realise it's better in my context to simply manage what I have, rather than "improve" it through tillage and starting over, or putting stuff on it that may harm the soil or waterways.
If you only look at performance, then sure I can improve my grassland's short term with a bit of fert or regrassing, but then looking past that I see little need for it so generally decide against.
My old pasture is productive enough, more importantly are tough and resilient so with proper management they are more efficient.

Management is pretty cheap compared to cost of work.

Again though, as @SilliamWhale said - it makes it just so hard to quantify "results" with HM - its hard enough with reductionist thinking.
How do I work out what using a wormer on my sheep makes me, and what it costs me, the financial part is easily examined, but when you consider other implications to residues in the whole farm biome, it's something I try to not need to use.

It isn't because I'm scared of progress, it is just my idea of progress is different to many, and probably my values are different also.

Some stuff that we don't really like, is still "the lesser of two evils" - notice Will said he is a 'pesticide-using no-tiller' and I can admire that, because I can see the rational thought process that has gone into the decisions.
How many of us would willingly use a pesticide if we could "just snap our fingers?"
Some impacts we cannot avoid, and still protect our business - we just need to understand the implications of what we do, that's my take on it.

 

[hendrebc]

So you have to look at the whole farm and look at how different things affect other things and try and manage them to make the impact you want with the least harmful affects for the rest of the farm? I think thats what it means isnt it?
You mention drenches affecring other things with residues. I used a yellow wormer last year instead of the ivermectin i ysed the year before. I noticed i saw a lot less sheep crap on the ground after the yellow drench so im guessing the resudues arent as bad with yellow and the worms and beetles worked in into the ground faster. Less muck on the ground also means less likelyhood of picking up worms gor the lambs too i think so a win win. Obviously not having to drench at all would be better so different grazing management and cattle would help there would that be considered HM too? If so i think a lot of farmers already do some HM without evej knowing it.
Its the grazing thing that stumps me. How/when do you know when the grass has recovered enough to graze again? Sometimes its let to run to seed and sometimes not sometimes its trampled quite badly sometimes you move them on quickly before any damage to the grass. I suppose it depends on circumstances ar the time? This is probably why someone asked for book recommendations its a complicated thing to get your head around and know were to start. Even harder for someone to explain.

 

[Jungle Bill]

What would anyone recommend as a good first book for begginers like myself? Something interesting but not necessarily too technical just to learn basic principles.

Both Savory and HMI occasionally give away their ebooks for free on their Facebook pages from time to time, these give the basics in a few pages.

Otherwise it’s a case of Plan, Do, Monitor, Control, Replan.

The important and difficult bit is to know what you are trying to do.

 

[hendrebc]

Both Savory and HMI occasionally give away their ebooks for free on their Facebook pages from time to time, these give the basics in a few pages.

Otherwise it’s a case of Plan, Do, Monitor, Control, Replan.

The important and difficult bit is to know what you are trying to do.

I think thats what everyonw here is struggling with.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

View attachment 663684
So you have to look at the whole farm and look at how different things affect other things and try and manage them to make the impact you want with the least harmful affects for the rest of the farm? I think thats what it means isnt it?
You mention drenches affecring other things with residues. I used a yellow wormer last year instead of the ivermectin i ysed the year before. I noticed i saw a lot less sheep crap on the ground after the yellow drench so im guessing the resudues arent as bad with yellow and the worms and beetles worked in into the ground faster. Less muck on the ground also means less likelyhood of picking up worms gor the lambs too i think so a win win. Obviously not having to drench at all would be better so different grazing management and cattle would help there would that be considered HM too? If so i think a lot of farmers already do some HM without evej knowing it.
Its the grazing thing that stumps me. How/when do you know when the grass has recovered enough to graze again? Sometimes its let to run to seed and sometimes not sometimes its trampled quite badly sometimes you move them on quickly before any damage to the grass. I suppose it depends on circumstances ar the time? This is probably why someone asked for book recommendations its a complicated thing to get your head around and know were to start. Even harder for someone to explain.

Yeah, thats right, everything functions as wholes, within wholes on a farm. A lot of cyclical happenings too, you have plant cycles and life cyles and water cycles and nutrient cycles.... but these things are all interdependent in that they are all connected.
It is immediately extremely complex to problemsolve all of "this" so it is a matter of planning, knowing where you are going and then reassessing how well it worked. It is also a cycle, so you're right, a lot are already using HM without knowing...

I find using HM in the household is very handy to make sense of it all, yet there is no mob-stocking going on in here

But I try to see the farm as a whole big living "thing" and people are a big part of it, microbes are a big part of it, hence my natural reluctance to limit the diversity by using some tools at our disposal... I understand that microbial diversity is a driver of our system as much as plant biodiversity is, and having several classes of animals...
I can get around using them by long pasture recovery periods and have the base of the sward constantly renewing, then I don't have as much issue with parasites and scald and other common afflictions that may not be apparent grazing problems, but grazing strategy won't help, if it isn't being planned with that in mind.
By the time things could become an issue in the autumn our lambs are gone and its months before sheep come back, stock are swapped over before winter so there is an extra break in the cycle then.

So, there are a lot of simultaneous things going on to help manage just that one issue, HM just saves having to think about it all the time, I can just think about pasture recovery time instead and it makes it all simple, everything gets catered for simply because the planning has been done.
We do FEC and see how it's working.

Plan, Do, Monitor, Control, RePlan...

 

[foobar]

Yeah, I read those last year, very interesting. There is a bit in one of them about lifting the PH without liming which I must read again, as that is something that would very useful to me on my smallholding which isn't really big enough for large lime spreaders & tractors. In fact I will probably read them both again now!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

One thing I really struggle with is sticking to the plan
Unfortunately there is always room to improve, and my next year plan will allow a lot more for summer dry, but we did OK where we could have done better. Too many grazing mobs and not enough subdivision meant that we fell off our grazing plan and began rotationally grazing.
So it is a massive learning curve and change in thinking, but we live and learn

 

[SilliamWhale]

I think thats what everyonw here is struggling with.

Think of what you want from your life and your farm management in 3 ways. Economucally, environmentally and socially and plan accordingly.

For example you may say you want every weekend off, or an annual holiday or not to work more than 40 hours a week etc. You may want to become a pillar of your community.

You may decide you want to sustain your environment. You may want to improve it. You may even want to denude some of it for overriding reasons (that isn't against the law for some circumstances). You may want to plant trees. When you decide what you want to do go through the positive and negatives of your decisions ie test your decision


You may decide you want to make loads of money, you may want enough to get buy, you may want to redirect your money into other business etc.

These sorts of questions should help you plan your aims

 

[SilliamWhale]

One thing I really struggle with is sticking to the plan

Do you have to? There is room in your plan to not stick to it.

I agree with Jungle Bill about a well delivered course because it gives you clarity. Some courses are a bit rock starry and means the speaker is inordinately expensive but they're not all like that. I did a course with Kirk Gadzia and thought it was good value

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Do you have to? There is room in your plan to not stick to it.

There is. I just feel like some things I could have allowed for, I told myself when planning wouldn't likely happen, and they did... so we are eating into our winter sheep feed with cattle we are struggling to sell, which will impact our winter cashflow more than I'd like.
But we are on track, of course, things have greatly improved as I come to terms with some of the "mind adjustments"

 

[hendrebc]

Yeah, thats right, everything functions as wholes, within wholes on a farm. A lot of cyclical happenings too, you have plant cycles and life cyles and water cycles and nutrient cycles.... but these things are all interdependent in that they are all connected.
It is immediately extremely complex to problemsolve all of "this" so it is a matter of planning, knowing where you are going and then reassessing how well it worked. It is also a cycle, so you're right, a lot are already using HM without knowing...

I find using HM in the household is very handy to make sense of it all, yet there is no mob-stocking going on in here

But I try to see the farm as a whole big living "thing" and people are a big part of it, microbes are a big part of it, hence my natural reluctance to limit the diversity by using some tools at our disposal... I understand that microbial diversity is a driver of our system as much as plant biodiversity is, and having several classes of animals...
I can get around using them by long pasture recovery periods and have the base of the sward constantly renewing, then I don't have as much issue with parasites and scald and other common afflictions that may not be apparent grazing problems, but grazing strategy won't help, if it isn't being planned with that in mind.
By the time things could become an issue in the autumn our lambs are gone and its months before sheep come back, stock are swapped over before winter so there is an extra break in the cycle then.

So, there are a lot of simultaneous things going on to help manage just that one issue, HM just saves having to think about it all the time, I can just think about pasture recovery time instead and it makes it all simple, everything gets catered for simply because the planning has been done.
We do FEC and see how it's working.

Plan, Do, Monitor, Control, RePlan...

So wed better start trying to understand the cycles properly and how they all fit in with each other before attempting anything. I bet its quite simple once you understand the basics and everyrhing just clicks in your head
Getting to that point makes me feel a bit dumb though
Which might not be far off the truth

Think of what you want from your life and your farm management in 3 ways. Economucally, environmentally and socially and plan accordingly.

For example you may say you want every weekend off, or an annual holiday or not to work more than 40 hours a week etc. You may want to become a pillar of your community.

You may decide you want to sustain your environment. You may want to improve it. You may even want to denude some of it for overriding reasons (that isn't against the law for some circumstances). You may want to plant trees. When you decide what you want to do go through the positive and negatives of your decisions ie test your decision


You may decide you want to make loads of money, you may want enough to get buy, you may want to redirect your money into other business etc.

These sorts of questions should help you plan your aims

So think were i want to get to first and then work back from that.

 

[SilliamWhale]

So wed better start trying to understand the cycles properly and how they all fit in with each other before attempting anything. I bet its quite simple once you understand the basics and everyrhing just clicks in your head
Getting to that point makes me feel a bit dumb though
Which might not be far off the truth

So think were i want to get to first and then work back from that.

Its complex because all "systems thinking" as it were is. But its not terribly complicated. But it will depend on what your trying to achieve.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Yes, you have to know what it is you want, you need your goals to aid your decisionmaking.

Having a family I like to spend time with, fire brigade and community involvement, a fulltime but varied job, and a little bit of a farm all require time management.
Farming has to be profitable, it has to pay it's way, we can't carry it for very long.
And, I want to improve soil health and the farm environment, we want to plant a lot of trees but again the farm has to pay for that as well as pay down borrowings so we have to work with the infrastructure we've got, all of which shapes the plan, which makes it all happen.
(Which is why I don't like overgrazing now, as that has consequences )

 

[Jungle Bill]

So think were i want to get to first and then work back from that.

Yes, and every time you are about to make a decision ask yourself if it will get you nearer to where you want to be.

Joel Salatin has a one sentence Mission Statement for his business posted on his website and around his house and farm office so everyone knows what they are trying to achieve.

 

[hendrebc]

You could almost say that holistic farming is about fiting in with your life that you want and not having to fit your life around a farm that needs constant attention if thats what you want. Sounds pretty damn good to me

 

[Farmer Roy]