"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Henarar]

We don't live in a suitable climate for big cattle

so some do ?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

You may keep what ever you like, I was just answering the question. If a big cow makes less per acre/hectare than smaller cow, and the big cow also proceeds to damage the land or require expensive wintering then it make sense in that context to keep a smaller cow.

The buffalo never had a "cost of carry" which is well worth considering and the whole world had just enough food to go around, once.

 

[som farmer]

as i have said before, mankind, cannot survive without farming, but you wouldn't realise that, from all the shite we get. There has to be a trade off point. Sprays, fert, are great tools for increasing yields, but at what expense ? Very often think, new strains of crops, are 'created', to ensure we use loads of spray/fert, we certainly faff about more now, with crops, than we ever used to. Think how many fungicides, we apply to grain crops, to what we used to use, spr barley, weedkiller, cheap, calaxin ? fungicide, fert, shut the gate. Yield, in itself, is very important, for profit, and to feed the worlds growing population, or what's left, after covid ! Comparing yields, of 20 yrs ago, and todays, not a lot of difference, but compare imputs, makes us look like idiots, because, what have we actually achieved ? by using the extra sprays fert etc. Plant breeders, should be concentrating, on disease resistance, or a more resilient plant. The first, although they claim they are more resistant, why do we need, so many spray applications, the second, they have, it's called GM, if you can't use it, they haven't ! For such an important part of life, we are treated, like we are destroying it, and people do not/ cannot, afford to pay a realistic price, for an essential part of life. I would venture to claim, processed crap food, is a greater danger to life, than, fert, sprays or even GM.

 

[Henarar]

I assume there will be... but "not my problem", I'm paid to use them as tools

One of the cool and unique things about grazing - a builder isn't going to come to me and say "well, there's really no work on at the moment, how about I pay you $1800 a week to keep my saws and nailgun at your place, just don't let them sit out and get rusty" but another farmer effectively is doing that (well, 3 other farmers are doing that).

I presume that they are envisaging quite a bright future for their stock sales or they wouldn't be outbidding the dairy operators when it comes to calf grazing

Trouble is we can't do that Pete, be quite happy to, TB stops it though

 

[Kiwi Pete]

so some do ?

Quite possibly - see my post above about the "no cost-of-carry"

If you can afford to do whatever you want, then it changes the context; I can easily see people around here who have been given a good farm and use a business plan along the lines of "try not to lose the farm, son" and have similar cashflow to the buffalo herds.
10-20 acres per cow/calf pair on free land? That's a good climate for big cattle!

But if the context includes proper going rates for labour input and "land" then the stock have to suit the actual, physical environment as well as pay to suit the economic climate, and still be easy enough that their herder has a life.

 

[Henarar]

You need the right size cow for your land but you also need a market for your calf and you need to weigh one against the other
no good turning up at market with lots of little weaned calves that folk just laugh at a offer 50 quid for which is what more or less happens with Dexter's or sending them off on the dead and getting penalised the hell out of them cos they are under weight
So yes you don't want to big a cow but there is a trade off point all according to your land your system and your market and no one size will fit all

 

[JohnGalway]

You need the right size cow for your land but you also need a market for your calf and you need to weigh one against the other
no good turning up at market with lots of little weaned calves that folk just laugh at a offer 50 quid for which is what more or less happens with Dexter's or sending them off on the dead and getting penalised the hell out of them cos they are under weight
So yes you don't want to big a cow but there is a trade off point all according to your land your system and your market and no one size will fit all

You're answering your own question. Regenerative ag, in my opinion, is just the smart way of the farmer producing or growing something. It's something that happens on the farm, not in the mart or the factory. The sales and marketing job is something altogether different requiring another change in mindset and the learning of new skills and also where a lot of people go nah f**k that, that's not easy, or I don't know how to do that, or I'm uncomfortable with that.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

You need the right size cow for your land but you also need a market for your calf and you need to weigh one against the other
no good turning up at market with lots of little weaned calves that folk just laugh at a offer 50 quid for which is what more or less happens with Dexter's or sending them off on the dead and getting penalised the hell out of them cos they are under weight
So yes you don't want to big a cow but there is a trade off point all according to your land your system and your market and no one size will fit all

That's what I was meaning about being able to "stock the farm affordably" (or maybe I didn't post that)..
I could buy 130kg friesian x bulls for $50, pretty difficult not to make money on them, even if every other one caught covid and syphillis and shuffled its mortal coil as a result.
This demonstrates that there is always a market, at the right price... is there still going to be a market for a big beef "calf" at $1300, looking ahead I would say their walls are closing in faster than the $50 ones.

 

[Henarar]

And I still think that nobody can say that a 800kg cow stood out in ground is worse for the environment than a 600kg cow stood next to her without knowing what environment they are in.

Are elephants bad for the environment ?
didn't Savory have loads of them killed, must have been a good thing?

And yes I am being deliberately cantankerous with this but I don't like broad brush statements that don't take into account local conditions and restrictions

 

[JohnGalway]

It's in a video I've watched before, but I would have to trawl through days of info to find it and I'm not doing that, but regarding size larger heavier animals are harder on the ground which leads to erosion. In the environment being discussed at the time, larger cattle also made less money on a per acre/hectare basis. But the "conventional wisdom" was to breed bigger, cos bigger was better, just cos.

Most likely either a Kit Pharo or Allen Williams video.

You may keep what ever you like, I was just answering the question. If a big cow makes less per acre/hectare than smaller cow, and the big cow also proceeds to damage the land or require expensive wintering then it make sense in that context to keep a smaller cow.

And I still think that nobody can say that a 800kg cow stood out in ground is worse for the environment than a 600kg cow stood next to her without knowing what environment they are in.

Are elephants bad for the environment ?
didn't Savory have loads of them killed, must have been a good thing?

And yes I am being deliberately cantankerous with this but I don't like broad brush statements that don't take into account local conditions and restrictions

 

[Kiwi Pete]

And I still think that nobody can say that a 800kg cow stood out in ground is worse for the environment than a 600kg cow stood next to her without knowing what environment they are in.

Are elephants bad for the environment ?
didn't Savory have loads of them killed, must have been a good thing?

And yes I am being deliberately cantankerous with this but I don't like broad brush statements that don't take into account local conditions and restrictions

Elephants.... that's the great thing I took from Mr Savory without ever reading his handbooks.

This great thing about elephants, or indeed gazelle, giraffes, or most other "wildlife" is that they can actually pay their way without becoming the commodity

we took the "wildlife sanctuary/tourist money" thing and modified it to suit our context, and kept modifying it, we may eventually actually get people to pay to come on safari and help with the migration... but it all stands to isolate the "value" of the livestock on Leeside from whatever the commodity market says they're worth.

I don't feel like feeding the world, today

 

[GC74]

So are nz farmers being told to reduce nitrogen applications?

Yes we are. New regs that came into effect early September limits n to 190kg/ha. (Not sure of the start date for this but it there) This only applies to pastoral. Arable and Hort are exempted. There were quite a few interesting rules brought in at the same time.

 

[JohnGalway]

The buffalo never had a "cost of carry" which is well worth considering and the whole world had just enough food to go around, once.

Cost of carry? As in chems, assisted wintering as opposed to populations fluctuations?

 

[som farmer]

And I still think that nobody can say that a 800kg cow stood out in ground is worse for the environment than a 600kg cow stood next to her without knowing what environment they are in.

Are elephants bad for the environment ?
didn't Savory have loads of them killed, must have been a good thing?

And yes I am being deliberately cantankerous with this but I don't like broad brush statements that don't take into account local conditions and restrictions

whether we like it, or not, with the new big danger, climate change, as farmers, we will be subjected to more and more regulations, drawn up, by those that know nowt about ag, probably think food appears on a s/mkt shelve, and farmers are destroying the world. There are many things, farmers do, that are detrimental, to the environment, just as other things we do, are beneficial. One of the biggest, misunderstandings, is that belching cows are the main cause (well nearly) of raising carbon levels. The new goal, is to get carbon neutral, by 2040, or so, by ag, this is completely unattainable, on a global scale, on a UK scale, it probably will be possible. Rules/regs etc, will force us along that route, and farming will have to change, just as it will have to adapt to brexit. This change, will mean, our current farming systems, will be under the spot light, whilst being asked, by the WHO to increase, food production, to feed the ever growing population, the two, don't sit together.
With regard to big cows/little cows/environment, there is loads of information out there to research, certainly, in dairy farming, grazing herds tend to be more profitable, and tend to have smaller cows. The high imput, high out put herds, running machinery, and importing straights, from all over the globe, soya and palm oil, for example, have to be less carbon friendly, than grass rats, eating forage, and b-all else, and, in theory, that should apply to beef cows. Not being a beef farmer now, although i have had a suckler herd, the NBA, has correctly, put out a proposal, that is contentious, very. Whether, right or wrong, it has caused enough argument, to ensure a proper 'debate' will happen, or it might be more, of pistols at dawn. Big changes are coming to ag, it is up to us, how we alter, some will thrive, others will muddle on, and sadly, some will exit. No one system, is 'the way' forward, but, your system, on your farm, has to make a sensible living, for you, and your family.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Cost of carry? As in chems, assisted wintering as opposed to populations fluctuations?

It can probably include or exclude a lot of things, dependent again on that word "context" .

Destocking has "a cost" if it is part of a business that derives income from being stocked.. however a business seldom "needs" negative cashflow.

But cost of carry is a rather loose term, probably loose for a reason

How Cost of Carry Works

Cost of carry refers to expenses incurred as a result of an investment position, including interest, storage, and opportunity costs.

www.investopedia.com

.

 

[Henarar]

A bit of useless information to tell anyone else then

 

[Crofter64]

And yes I am being deliberately cantankerous with this but I don't like broad brush statements that don't take into account local conditions and restrictions

And the producer has to like the type of animals they are caring for, big, small, hairy,smooth...It’s not all about what the market wants, it’s also about what the producer wants and enjoys. Without that emotional attachment you’re just mimicking a factory AND working for peanuts

 

[Henarar]

whether we like it, or not, with the new big danger, climate change, as farmers, we will be subjected to more and more regulations, drawn up, by those that know nowt about ag, probably think food appears on a s/mkt shelve, and farmers are destroying the world. There are many things, farmers do, that are detrimental, to the environment, just as other things we do, are beneficial. One of the biggest, misunderstandings, is that belching cows are the main cause (well nearly) of raising carbon levels. The new goal, is to get carbon neutral, by 2040, or so, by ag, this is completely unattainable, on a global scale, on a UK scale, it probably will be possible. Rules/regs etc, will force us along that route, and farming will have to change, just as it will have to adapt to brexit. This change, will mean, our current farming systems, will be under the spot light, whilst being asked, by the WHO to increase, food production, to feed the ever growing population, the two, don't sit together.
With regard to big cows/little cows/environment, there is loads of information out there to research, certainly, in dairy farming, grazing herds tend to be more profitable, and tend to have smaller cows. The high imput, high out put herds, running machinery, and importing straights, from all over the globe, soya and palm oil, for example, have to be less carbon friendly, than grass rats, eating forage, and b-all else, and, in theory, that should apply to beef cows. Not being a beef farmer now, although i have had a suckler herd, the NBA, has correctly, put out a proposal, that is contentious, very. Whether, right or wrong, it has caused enough argument, to ensure a proper 'debate' will happen, or it might be more, of pistols at dawn. Big changes are coming to ag, it is up to us, how we alter, some will thrive, others will muddle on, and sadly, some will exit. No one system, is 'the way' forward, but, your system, on your farm, has to make a sensible living, for you, and your family.

Ahh you mention the NBA's stupid proposal.
So old cattle are bad for the the environment as well.
Got to commiserate with a big old cow, poor old girl got nart going for her at all apparently

 

[JohnGalway]

A bit of useless information to tell anyone else then

Erosion can happen in many places around the world, including these islands.

 

[Henarar]

Erosion can happen in many places around the world, including these islands.

And without it the biggest part of Somerset would be under water
Why is everything that a cow could possibly do somehow bad all to once
There they have been happy getting on with life for millennia and now they can't put a foot right, can't get to old, can't get to big, can't knock a bit of soil in the river or have a good dump while cooling their feet.
Cow lives matter
Cow lives matter
Cow lives matter
Rar rar rar

And all this told to us by folk that never drive round in cars or fly in planes or live in houses built with concrete and heated with gas, I mean WTAF have they done wrong for the bloody environment