"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[onesiedale]

I want to see what I can store on the landscape,

^^^ key statement there!

 

[Sprig]

What do you all do about winter grazing? My sheep winter out. I have 3 main fields. My plan is to leave them on one and start feeding hay once the grass runs out (probably after Christmas) and save the others so that I have good grass for them to go on to in spring/for lambing ( not until April). The winter field will then be able to be rested for a long period because as well as the 2 fields of mine that I am not planning to graze over winter I have access extra grazing for summer use only. Does that sound like a good plan? I thought that was better than rotating them around all 3 fields over winter so that everything ends up bare. I have plenty of hay. Thanks.

 

[Woolless]

What do you all do about winter grazing? My sheep winter out. I have 3 main fields. My plan is to leave them on one and start feeding hay once the grass runs out (probably after Christmas) and save the others so that I have good grass for them to go on to in spring/for lambing ( not until April). The winter field will then be able to be rested for a long period because as well as the 2 fields of mine that I am not planning to graze over winter I have access extra grazing for summer use only. Does that sound like a good plan? I thought that was better than rotating them around all 3 fields over winter so that everything ends up bare. I have plenty of hay. Thanks.

That's what I do. The sacrifice field isn't a thing of beauty by the end of March but it lets the rest get away.

 

[Sprig]

Thanks.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

What do you all do about winter grazing? My sheep winter out. I have 3 main fields. My plan is to leave them on one and start feeding hay once the grass runs out (probably after Christmas) and save the others so that I have good grass for them to go on to in spring/for lambing ( not until April). The winter field will then be able to be rested for a long period because as well as the 2 fields of mine that I am not planning to graze over winter I have access extra grazing for summer use only. Does that sound like a good plan? I thought that was better than rotating them around all 3 fields over winter so that everything ends up bare. I have plenty of hay. Thanks.

Sounds ideal, really. Definitely let your "rest" be all it can be, as in don't rush into spring grazing too soon but you knew that!
You have paid good money to harvest your hay, get your return from it by leveraging time

 

[som farmer]

You're right. But it's the machinery and expense that we all want to ( got to) avoid.
How do we keep that grass in the growth phase? - pushing up green shoots and deep roots rather than stalks, seed heads and just creating litter beds.
As a dairy farmer, we've always been taught you must graze that leaf right down to allow green leaf to come back. I'm now thinking of what KP just said; all that's doing is causing stress, and what happens when your grass is stressed? Seed heads!

we are told, grass grows 3 leaves, 4th one grows, 1 dies, and we must graze the leaf before it dies. If this is true, and i am not saying it's wrong, this will continue, as the plant grows stem, so if we still use the 1st 3 leaves, they should be as nutritious as before, the difference being there is a long stem. It is the difference that this stem makes to production, it should increase p/synthesis, between grazing's - more green, which in turn, should strengthen root systems, by quicker/better p/synthesis. Pretty heavy stuff, but we have left longer residuals this summer, for our dairy, which was drier than last, milk per cow, increased by 200 liters, not a scientific fact, but i expected the opposite. Going back to the plate meter, and kg of grass/dm acre, we are basically bleeding the plant to death, never giving it recovery time, and many rye grasses do not have a deep root system, by hammering it, especially in shortages, they do not last their allotted time, exactly what we have found, then we reseed etc. The start of an expensive cycle, The problem of being in that cycle, is how do you get off, and still farm 'properly' - make the necessary money you need. This coming year, our farm is unexpectedly growing, 2 blocks of land, 75 acres, has come our way, all grass, and not to be ploughed, the rent, is substantially less, than our expense of buying fodder, in each of the last 3 summers/winters, and will, i hope, allow us more leeway to experiment, different varieties can be d/d if needed, and will remove all the worry of grazing/fodder shortages, we have had over the last 3 yrs, at no real extra expense. That really is my 'musings' over the subject, whether right or wrong. I do know constant reseeding is expensive, and we need to get out of that vicious cycle, and this is probably the only real chance to break it. The next question, how much clover do we need to reduce our N usage, plenty of figures for theoretical N from legumes, does that actually occur, in farm conditions ?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

^^^ key statement there!

It is our key check out the fertility transfer last night, just the simple things can facilitate that "extra storage", I reckon

What we may consider our "capacity" may only be our current capacity, I want to expand that.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

we are told, grass grows 3 leaves, 4th one grows, 1 dies, and we must graze the leaf before it dies. If this is true, and i am not saying it's wrong, this will continue, as the plant grows stem, so if we still use the 1st 3 leaves, they should be as nutritious as before, the difference being there is a long stem. It is the difference that this stem makes to production, it should increase p/synthesis, between grazing's - more green, which in turn, should strengthen root systems, by quicker/better p/synthesis. Pretty heavy stuff, but we have left longer residuals this summer, for our dairy, which was drier than last, milk per cow, increased by 200 liters, not a scientific fact, but i expected the opposite. Going back to the plate meter, and kg of grass/dm acre, we are basically bleeding the plant to death, never giving it recovery time, and many rye grasses do not have a deep root system, by hammering it, especially in shortages, they do not last their allotted time, exactly what we have found, then we reseed etc. The start of an expensive cycle, The problem of being in that cycle, is how do you get off, and still farm 'properly' - make the necessary money you need. This coming year, our farm is unexpectedly growing, 2 blocks of land, 75 acres, has come our way, all grass, and not to be ploughed, the rent, is substantially less, than our expense of buying fodder, in each of the last 3 summers/winters, and will, i hope, allow us more leeway to experiment, different varieties can be d/d if needed, and will remove all the worry of grazing/fodder shortages, we have had over the last 3 yrs, at no real extra expense. That really is my 'musings' over the subject, whether right or wrong. I do know constant reseeding is expensive, and we need to get out of that vicious cycle, and this is probably the only real chance to break it. The next question, how much clover do we need to reduce our N usage, plenty of figures for theoretical N from legumes, does that actually occur, in farm conditions ?

I believe that the root cause is the belief that we "own" stuff.
We own the cows, sure, but do we really "own" the land?
We maybe bought the seed but do we really "own" the grass or are we just borrowing some energy and some Carbon and Nitrogen for a while?

As our costs and overheads rise, then we feel we ought to utilise things better, which is fine for a while.
But it's a mistake to think that our grass belongs to us, when it belongs to the landscape, which is why your "bleeding it dry" comment has huge value.

We need to only take off what we need to take off, leave the rest for next time.

 

[onesiedale]

http://instagr.am/p/CHe-7EfFhfZ/ Link here to a refreshing podcast.
Enjoy. (nb. It wouldn't make much sense if it had a swear filter!)

 

[Fenwick]

sorgham sudan grass, is used for hay/silage, in the states, looked into it, it's interesting, but haven't come across anybody growing it, in the UK, yet.

Péople have just started growing it a bit in my area. Not very conclusive yet. Soil temps of 12C at sowing seem a must.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Péople have just started growing it a bit in my area. Not very conclusive yet. Soil temps of 12C at sowing seem a must.

It's a real warm-season plant, I think it would.maybe fill a niche when our cool-season grasses sign off for summer. Would be interested to hear how it gets on

 

[Fenwick]

That's the one can be like teaching a pig to sing, you have to know when to walk away from it.

Yeah this.

Get a lot of Hassle from vegans when trying to direct sell. Unfortunatley they are often fanatics so no point engaging wiith them. which is a shame as thérè are some valid points on both sides of' thé débate.

Have a freind who is full on vegan, hé has flyers for my beef and veal in his shop.
Things are rarely black and white.

 

[Fenwick]

You're right. But it's the machinery and expense that we all want to ( got to) avoid.
How do we keep that grass in the growth phase? - pushing up green shoots and deep roots rather than stalks, seed heads and just creating litter beds.
As a dairy farmer, we've always been taught you must graze that leaf right down to allow green leaf to come back. I'm now thinking of what KP just said; all that's doing is causing stress, and what happens when your grass is stressed? Seed heads!

but is it grazing it down tight that causes stress? or grazing too often?

plants néed to express their genetic potentiel as much as possible to not bé stressed. Which implys hitting that sigmoïde growth curve at thé sweet spot.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

but is it grazing it down tight that causes stress? or grazing too often?

plants néed to express their genetic potentiel as much as possible to not bé stressed. Which implys hitting that sigmoïde growth curve at thé sweet spot.

I think it might be a factor of grazing for too long that causes the stress to be compounding with the other factors.
Grazing is a stress but there is a large difference between being grazed for 24 hours a year, to 24 days, to 24 weeks.

You can touch a boiling pot but you cannot keep your hand there for long ... - maybe any level of defoliation is OK provided it is short and timed appropriately?
That's what I want to test here. If we double the density we halve the time from when they begin to graze to when they move out

 

[Henarar]

I think it might be a factor of grazing for too long that causes the stress to be compounding with the other factors.
Grazing is a stress but there is a large difference between being grazed for 24 hours a year, to 24 days, to 24 weeks.

In times of plenty the wild grazers would move to new fresh pasture more quickly and come back another time for the not so good stuff ?

 

[Rob Garrett]

but is it grazing it down tight that causes stress? or grazing too often?

plants néed to express their genetic potentiel as much as possible to not bé stressed. Which implys hitting that sigmoïde growth curve at thé sweet spot.

Is there one "sweet spot" or multiple throughout the grass growth year/curve?

In a nutshell we are trying to balance these sweet "spots" within our systems i.e. stock class, soil, long/short term objectives etc.

Finding one grass growth sweet spot to graze seems to me too simplistic i.e three leaf or seedhead emergence or X kg DM/ha etc.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

In times of plenty the wild grazers would move to new fresh pasture more quickly and come back another time for the not so good stuff ?

Yes
I read some article that they would surf along their "green wave" but also (sometimes) they'd abandon the trek and just park up, to an extent.
Generally it's a risk/reward thing, for example the predators and instinct dictating movement would take priority normally.. but not always.
From what I read, those "parks" for want of a better term were seldom revisited annually but also "rotated" to a degree as the whole areas were changed by the excessive animal impact, so maybe that's what our weeds are trying to tell us?
To mix it up?

 

[som farmer]

controlled grazing, in a rotation is only mimicking the wild animals, as they move across their 'range', we do it with electric fence/paddocks. For the modern view, it's about having the shortest possible 'hit' to grass growth, and max growth is the aim. If you take the 3 leaf point, there will always be 3 leaf's, nowhere have i seen the nutrient value of those 3 leaf's, any claim that changes, if you take them at 6ins or 12ins, obviously seed head comes into the equation, but keeping it simple ! So the major difference between the two systems, is a later date to start grazing grass, that can be countered with stockpile etc, and more plant, to send energy back down to the roots. Once into the system, i cannot see much difference in rest periods between the two, as long as those 3 leaf's have the same nutrient value. As i have said before, the nutrient value of any feed, can be affected, by the time it takes to pass through, an animals digestive system, palm kernel being a prime example, it cannot be totally broken down, by a cow, simply because it passes through the gut, faster than the time needed, to break it down. We all know, at turnout, the cows sh#t through the eye of a needle, proving x amount flies out the wrong end, i'm not professing that i know the solution, but the theory behind the thought, keeps niggling away at me. Perhaps with having swopped to xbred cows, this becomes even more relevant, as their nutrient needs are less than a 8000 liter holstien. It also goes against modern thinking on grazing.
,

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Is there one "sweet spot" or multiple throughout the grass growth year/curve?

In a nutshell we are trying to balance these sweet "spots" within our systems i.e. stock class, soil, long/short term objectives etc.

Finding one grass growth sweet spot to graze seems to me too simplistic i.e three leaf or seedhead emergence or X kg DM/ha etc.

Yeah.. I personally think that is too simplistic.

It can be made to work, all recipes "work" or they wouldn't be worth writing down.
It's why I threw our platemeter away, it's a fairly cheap machine but it attracts all these other machines. If you like to sit in the tractor, buy one!


That desire for simplicity is probably what grows great crops of things that are all ready at once, just like if we sowed that whole packet of carrot seed in our garden today.
That's going to have a predictable outcome, at some point in the future you're going to be buying carrots again,, whilst remembering all the carrots you once had,, as you pay for more

 

[Treg]

controlled grazing, in a rotation is only mimicking the wild animals, as they move across their 'range', we do it with electric fence/paddocks. For the modern view, it's about having the shortest possible 'hit' to grass growth, and max growth is the aim. If you take the 3 leaf point, there will always be 3 leaf's, nowhere have i seen the nutrient value of those 3 leaf's, any claim that changes, if you take them at 6ins or 12ins, obviously seed head comes into the equation, but keeping it simple ! So the major difference between the two systems, is a later date to start grazing grass, that can be countered with stockpile etc, and more plant, to send energy back down to the roots. Once into the system, i cannot see much difference in rest periods between the two, as long as those 3 leaf's have the same nutrient value. As i have said before, the nutrient value of any feed, can be affected, by the time it takes to pass through, an animals digestive system, palm kernel being a prime example, it cannot be totally broken down, by a cow, simply because it passes through the gut, faster than the time needed, to break it down. We all know, at turnout, the cows sh#t through the eye of a needle, proving x amount flies out the wrong end, i'm not professing that i know the solution, but the theory behind the thought, keeps niggling away at me. Perhaps with having swopped to xbred cows, this becomes even more relevant, as their nutrient needs are less than a 8000 liter holstien. It also goes against modern thinking on grazing.
,

When we were milking we always specified Citrus pulp in the feed , it wasn't the feed value we was after but the pectin in the Citrus pulp, so although on paper the feed with & without Citrus pulp could have the same feed value the pectin balanced the cow's stomachs & could make the difference of 1-1.5 litres a day.
I think the same can be applied to grazing & preserved forage , it's not necessarily the feed value that's important it's also how it reacts with the cows stomach.