"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Samcowman]

So what did you have in your mix?
Did you think there was much of a saving in buying it in? My mix was a tweaked version of a cotswolds one, but I had bulk Oats, Peas, Barley and Clover so just bought the other bits. I think I saved £250-300 in seed costs, but that’s before time mixing and costing what seed I had in the shed.

Peas, oats, fodder radish, fodder rape, turnips and Timothy. The Timothy was there as well to possibly give a grass a start ready for the spring. I haven’t seen it yet but wouldn’t expect to when competing with everything else. For the future drilling the 2 seed sizes separately I would just use whatever I had in the shed for large seed and then buy the small seeds in. It would be cheaper to use what you have in the shed rather than buying in if possible.

 

[exmoor dave]

(If our grass is measureable by a platemeter at this time of year, then I'm already failing my water cycle.
It took me a while to click to this)

Pete, don't spose you could expand on this?
Assume when you say 'this time of year', you mean early summer?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Pete, don't spose you could expand on this?
Assume when you say 'this time of year', you mean early summer?

Yeah.
You really want to be measuring covers by the tonne not the kilo at this time of year, because that's my water "bank".

I guess it's like "do you run your tank on the top half or just put fuel in when the light comes on" - it may be a long time between fuel stations.
I maintain a visual+ assessment is a more useful measurement than any gizmo you can buy.
You're connected with the machine in your grip, which limits your power to multitask, few can read a book and play guitar simultaneously.
Sorry if it reads like hippy BS

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Pretty happy with that anyway

I think they took enough and left enough

 

[Henarar]

You really want to be measuring covers by the tonne not the kilo at this time of year, because that's my water "bank".

I look to see what cover is there but I don't put a measurement to it, wouldn't know how to

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I look to see what cover is there but I don't put a measurement to it, wouldn't know how to

I learnt to look for all sorts of "measures", the least important of all is "how long is the grass" which is why I don't focus on that.
You can have loooong grass with no guts in it and you can have short grass that holds your feet off the ground.
Personally I like to feel the grass by pushing it down with my hands, too-soon grass doesn't push back at all. Too-late grass prickles your palms as the beginnings of hard stems fold over.
Just-about-now grass is like a folded up woolly blanket, springy and just right.

With practice you feel "just about now" grass through your boots as you walk, like a cushion. But that can be 3 or 13 inches tall.

A platemeter just helps you not think like that, you get home and download it and print a nice looking graph... like a school photo has the tall kids in the back row and the short kids at the front.
You'd be better off taking a golf club and no ball TBH

 

[exmoor dave]

Yeah.
You really want to be measuring covers by the tonne not the kilo at this time of year, because that's my water "bank".

I guess it's like "do you run your tank on the top half or just put fuel in when the light comes on" - it may be a long time between fuel stations.
I maintain a visual+ assessment is a more useful measurement than any gizmo you can buy.
You're connected with the machine in your grip, which limits your power to multitask, few can read a book and play guitar simultaneously.
Sorry if it reads like hippy BS

I learnt to look for all sorts of "measures", the least important of all is "how long is the grass" which is why I don't focus on that.
You can have loooong grass with no guts in it and you can have short grass that holds your feet off the ground.
Personally I like to feel the grass by pushing it down with my hands, too-soon grass doesn't push back at all. Too-late grass prickles your palms as the beginnings of hard stems fold over.
Just-about-now grass is like a folded up woolly blanket, springy and just right.

With practice you feel "just about now" grass through your boots as you walk, like a cushion. But that can be 3 or 13 inches tall.

A platemeter just helps you not think like that, you get home and download it and print a nice looking graph... like a school photo has the tall kids in the back row and the short kids at the front.
You'd be better off taking a golf club and no ball TBH

Thanks Pete

That's a couple of great analogies and explanations.

I got a platemeter on a grant scheme and to be honest find it very hard to get motivated to use it, I did do the whole farm in preparation for our last grazing group meeting..... took me the whole day to walk the main farm..... Jen broke her ankle on the morning of the meeting, so didn't make the meeting..... @Samcowman and @exmoor tom eat my cake at the meeting

It was good to get a 'farm cover', but to be honest the best bit was just being forced to get out and walk the whole place and just look at what's there- obviously the amount of grass, but also state of recovery, species, weed burden, deer and rabbit losses!
All stuff I just don't see from the seat of the bike.

Think a reasonably good example of the limitations of platemeter thinking, is a new field we are grazing, the sward is very highly creeping Bent (browntop to you?), very dense sward, the plate meter would probs say 2000, plenty of cover, but the stock simply don't like it, the sheep will graze it down so far, the cows on the previous round were very unhappy (I noticed in other fields with more mixed swards that the cattle eat around the c.bent)



Now..... grazing chart on the other hand started one in September, very useful!

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Thanks Pete

That's a couple of great analogies and explanations.

I got a platemeter on a grant scheme and to be honest find it very hard to get motivated to use it, I did do the whole farm in preparation for our last grazing group meeting..... took me the whole day to walk the main farm..... Jen broke her ankle on the morning of the meeting, so didn't make the meeting..... @Samcowman and @exmoor tom eat my cake at the meeting

It was good to get a 'farm cover', but to be honest the best bit was just being forced to get out and walk the whole place and just look at what's there- obviously the amount of grass, but also state of recovery, species, weed burden, deer and rabbit losses!
All stuff I just don't see from the seat of the bike.

Think a reasonably good example of the limitations of platemeter thinking, is a new field we are grazing, the sward is very highly creeping Bent (browntop to you?), very dense sward, the plate meter would probs say 2000, plenty of cover, but the stock simply don't like it, the sheep will graze it down so far, the cows on the previous round were very unhappy (I noticed in other fields with more mixed swards that the cattle eat around the c.bent)



Now..... grazing chart on the other hand started one in September, very useful!

Woa, you allow non exmoor people on your grazing group?!

 

[exmoor dave]

Woa, you allow non exmoor people on your grazing group?!

No this is a SW group....they let exmoor folk on it you'd enjoy it PBH!

 

[exmoor dave]

Woa, you allow non exmoor people on your grazing group?!

I'll send you a link

 

[Samcowman]

No this is a SW group....they let exmoor folk on it you'd enjoy it PBH!

Seems a good group.
We kept you some cake I’m sure it’ll be fine in January!!!

 

[som farmer]

Thanks Pete

That's a couple of great analogies and explanations.

I got a platemeter on a grant scheme and to be honest find it very hard to get motivated to use it, I did do the whole farm in preparation for our last grazing group meeting..... took me the whole day to walk the main farm..... Jen broke her ankle on the morning of the meeting, so didn't make the meeting..... @Samcowman and @exmoor tom eat my cake at the meeting

It was good to get a 'farm cover', but to be honest the best bit was just being forced to get out and walk the whole place and just look at what's there- obviously the amount of grass, but also state of recovery, species, weed burden, deer and rabbit losses!
All stuff I just don't see from the seat of the bike.

Think a reasonably good example of the limitations of platemeter thinking, is a new field we are grazing, the sward is very highly creeping Bent (browntop to you?), very dense sward, the plate meter would probs say 2000, plenty of cover, but the stock simply don't like it, the sheep will graze it down so far, the cows on the previous round were very unhappy (I noticed in other fields with more mixed swards that the cattle eat around the c.bent)



Now..... grazing chart on the other hand started one in September, very useful!

our plate meter is redundant, 2 yrs ? the boot measure is highly accurate, coupled with eye ball measure, it's all you need, and tells you more than a plate meter, you simply have got to know what your farm is doing, perhaps that is a modern failing, farmers are so busy, they don't have time to stop, and look, and watch.
Interesting, to say cattle don't like it, we have had fields like that, perhaps we ought t ask why. Personally, as most here were pp, it is the management that has been wrong, and allowed 'wrong' grass species to take over, the worst one here, is a scheduled monument, so unploughable, put it into stewardship, for years, only made it worse, but when it came out, some serious spray, and a dd crop of rape, followed by dd grass, turned a crap field, into a good one, we have just reseeded again, and sown a ley with plantain and clover. But the crap grass seed, will be in the seed bank, and will try and take over, aggressive grazing, is perhaps the answer, perhaps the answer to controlling all our grass, as cattle wont eat grasses they don't 'like', eventually they take over, so if you take grass right down, either cutting, or hard grazed, using it as a tool, will the good grass keep the bad, out ?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Thanks Pete

That's a couple of great analogies and explanations.

I got a platemeter on a grant scheme and to be honest find it very hard to get motivated to use it, I did do the whole farm in preparation for our last grazing group meeting..... took me the whole day to walk the main farm..... Jen broke her ankle on the morning of the meeting, so didn't make the meeting..... @Samcowman and @exmoor tom eat my cake at the meeting

It was good to get a 'farm cover', but to be honest the best bit was just being forced to get out and walk the whole place and just look at what's there- obviously the amount of grass, but also state of recovery, species, weed burden, deer and rabbit losses!
All stuff I just don't see from the seat of the bike.

Think a reasonably good example of the limitations of platemeter thinking, is a new field we are grazing, the sward is very highly creeping Bent (browntop to you?), very dense sward, the plate meter would probs say 2000, plenty of cover, but the stock simply don't like it, the sheep will graze it down so far, the cows on the previous round were very unhappy (I noticed in other fields with more mixed swards that the cattle eat around the c.bent)



Now..... grazing chart on the other hand started one in September, very useful!

I think that's one of the big thing I had to get my brain to accept: we aren't just growing food for our animals.

We're growing covers to store "free sky products" and letting animals at it sometimes, so it keeps in the best shape to be storing sky stuff.

You can do a million and one things to grass and something grows back... but it aint the plant's fault if that "something" isn't enough.
You can pile lime and fert on grass and have sh!t grass. You can water it and have sh!t grass!

this is right beside our limestore, would say it gets about 3cwt/ac of lime per week + as much super. and still grows daisies and has sh!t grass.
Most people would say "lime and fert will fix that"

Nope. Fencing it off and not grazing it all spring "would fix that". The daisies won't see much sun then.

It's when we see our job is growing food for animals or people.
That makes it harder to see what the real objective is. Like @martian's elephants

 

[Kiwi Pete]

our plate meter is redundant, 2 yrs ? the boot measure is highly accurate, coupled with eye ball measure, it's all you need, and tells you more than a plate meter, you simply have got to know what your farm is doing, perhaps that is a modern failing, farmers are so busy, they don't have time to stop, and look, and watch.
Interesting, to say cattle don't like it, we have had fields like that, perhaps we ought t ask why. Personally, as most here were pp, it is the management that has been wrong, and allowed 'wrong' grass species to take over, the worst one here, is a scheduled monument, so unploughable, put it into stewardship, for years, only made it worse, but when it came out, some serious spray, and a dd crop of rape, followed by dd grass, turned a crap field, into a good one, we have just reseeded again, and sown a ley with plantain and clover. But the crap grass seed, will be in the seed bank, and will try and take over, aggressive grazing, is perhaps the answer, perhaps the answer to controlling all our grass, as cattle wont eat grasses they don't 'like', eventually they take over, so if you take grass right down, either cutting, or hard grazed, using it as a tool, will the good grass keep the bad, out ?

Or maybe the opposite is true - let it grow to potential?

Again it probably ties in with above, maybe not all biomass is destined to make milk or meat.

..maybe creeping bent and woody weeds are trying to take over because that's what the animals aren't taking much of.
To restore a balance, let the animals not take too much of the good ones either.

 

[Henarar]

You can have loooong grass with no guts in it and you can have short grass that holds your feet off the ground.

Thats what I meant about ryegrass lay being a different story when you come to bale it, it looks good but there is no more there, bale it young and it won't stay in them bale it old and they don't like it

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Thats what I meant about ryegrass lay being a different story when you come to bale it, it looks good but there is no more there, bale it young and it won't stay in them bale it old and they don't like it

It's quite amazing what you get to see when you really want to see.
Looking is only part of the process of seeing.

One thing that I meant to capture but haven't yet is "the fenceline phenomenon" because in a lot of places we put the fence up in the exact same place each time and others we put in a slightly different place.
Where we put it up in the same place all the time, there's 'a gap in the grass" because nothing can pee or poo on it and nothing is really trampled in there, even if we wind the fence up there is not much cover to tramp down because they used to eat under the wires first.

Because we upped the density from (say) 8 tonnes of animal per hectare to 80, or 800, that "wasteage" increases - they all go and run around on it because it feels good to run around on - and so the grass there "looks" worse than what's under the fence.

But seldom do they eat that anymore so the trampled stuff must be better tasting stuff, they really show their favouritism at this time of year which surprised me as to my old mindset "it's losing quality, I must try to stop that happening" and bugger me if they don't want to eat what I used to try to grow for them
Their idea of quality feed is the stuff that they are pushing over with their brisket, not the hoof-polish.

It's almost like they never read the instructions on how to be proper animals.

When you get a platemeter, the instructions say that if you want an accurate reading, discount all the poo patches and urine patches and around gateways where the grass is long.
That's fair enough but then when you see cattle doing a ram-raid on a new break, they're eating exactly the grass you wouldn't measure because it's bad grass for being big

Go figure why that is and I bet it is about spending money when you boil it down

 

[som farmer]

it's suprising when you have a field cows dislike, and you have your crap grasses present, you mow it for hay, smells wonderful, and cattle eat the lot, if to many 'tussocks' being left behind, we will mow them off, if good sunny weather, all those skimmings are eaten pdq. How do we reconcile the won't eat, hay it, to scrump it, what do we lose in that process, that alters the 'taste' ? other than water.

 

[som farmer]

KP, you might like the post, but you haven't answered the question..

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I think that it just sours, it tastes that way to me.
Why is everyone wanting lime spread?

Maybe we simply sweeten the soil with whatever Carbon is there, and we sour it by removing what grows in a season and replacing it with different diets of this and that.

I mean, if you crave a banana and eat an grape flavour lolly it's still a good lolly, and you still think about the banana you didn't have.

Carbonates are probably the "lolly" version of Carbon polymer, ie humus. You keep putting lime on and it is good, but it's not regulating pH but altering it.
You put Carbon back and suddenly it is like it stays limed, as in the stock seem to actively seek out where has the best grass.
Maybe not the longest or shortest or even a maturity thing, whatever has the most goodies in it.

Cattle sense it with their nose/muzzle, you see them going side to side like a shark trying to work out what's the best next mouthful. I think it's the same as you feel with your back to a tree or when you take off your shoes and socks.

That's how I ended up looking harder at biodynamics and the spiritual side of "land" - I don't care that I can't explain it. Why do the cattle dig in a spot and then a spring starts there in a year?

I'm just grateful that I see it, that I'm part of it

 

[Poorbuthappy]

It's quite amazing what you get to see when you really want to see.
Looking is only part of the process of seeing.

One thing that I meant to capture but haven't yet is "the fenceline phenomenon" because in a lot of places we put the fence up in the exact same place each time and others we put in a slightly different place.
Where we put it up in the same place all the time, there's 'a gap in the grass" because nothing can pee or poo on it and nothing is really trampled in there, even if we wind the fence up there is not much cover to tramp down because they used to eat under the wires first.

Because we upped the density from (say) 8 tonnes of animal per hectare to 80, or 800, that "wasteage" increases - they all go and run around on it because it feels good to run around on - and so the grass there "looks" worse than what's under the fence.

But seldom do they eat that anymore so the trampled stuff must be better tasting stuff, they really show their favouritism at this time of year which surprised me as to my old mindset "it's losing quality, I must try to stop that happening" and bugger me if they don't want to eat what I used to try to grow for them
Their idea of quality feed is the stuff that they are pushing over with their brisket, not the hoof-polish.

It's almost like they never read the instructions on how to be proper animals.

When you get a platemeter, the instructions say that if you want an accurate reading, discount all the poo patches and urine patches and around gateways where the grass is long.
That's fair enough but then when you see cattle doing a ram-raid on a new break, they're eating exactly the grass you wouldn't measure because it's bad grass for being big

Go figure why that is and I bet it is about spending money when you boil it down

Funny you talk about the fenceline thing.
I took this photo yesterday

The fence stayed put all summer. They grazed it from both sides so it got grazed twice as often, or half the recovery period. Also, as you say, didn't poop or trample on it the same.
Grazed tighter so less residual to help recovery.
Its had same recovery time as now as within the paddock, but is still very, very short.