"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Fenwick]

These are some of the species I'm propagating for the basis of our silvopasture project.
View attachment 932283View attachment 932285View attachment 932286
along with some poplar, black alder, weeping willows, various native shrubs, endangered tree daisies etc

Hopefully we can get another 8-10TDM/ha of useful fodder on top of what we can grow with our pasture system, and alter our microclimate to grow a bit more of that while we're at it.
It'll let us get into the fruit/ nut/ berry production side of agriculture that I've never really had much opportunity to play with.

Gotta love that mate!

We're starting phase 1 of our tree planting next weekend. 1500 trees and shrubs including 5 hectares of agroforestery. Phase two is planned for november.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

View attachment 932091
Felt I needed to get some reading done before planning for the spring so ordered this a couple of days ago.
At nearly 500 pages it could take a while. Good job the text is big

A very enlightening book and well ahead of its time.

 

[Henarar]

we are reliably getting conception rates of 70%+ holding to 1st service, and in a tight block, 120 to calve in 42 day's, and starting in about 42 days. And we have calculated, the cost of the 'extra' AI, is much less than the cost, and risk, of buying a decent bull, and are keeping a chunky xbred bull calf to catch the difficult ones. Otherwise we could well have been interested, about £2,000 ? AA or BB semen + putting it in, is £10.50 cow/service., explains my logic, following on from that, we have 25 AA or BB calves here now, all AI, born between 27oct and 28nov, same management, valued by auctioneer, = value, AA seem to do the 'best' here.

I was having a laugh really and it seems you have the job pretty well sorted, if its not broken don't fix it
No he wouldn't be anywhere near 2 grand, the reason I said he would be good for grass rats is cos he is a bit short on the leg which is a shame as he has nice conformation and is got buy our old stock bull who was very easy calving.
Do you use Frome market at all ? from some of your posts I was thinking you may be round that neck of the woods

 

[som farmer]

not far from, but don't use it a lot, few barreners, and got some weaned calves, charlie coleman has got a good trade going for them. They pulled a fast one on me, several years back, and lost us as a regular, didn't gain anything out of it, in fact the opposite ! Dairy wise, use exeter, kivells look after us very well. Mark Northcott is retiring soon, another old school auctioneer gone. Fertility wise, we seem to have got it sorted, famous last words, but the simple fact is, if you look after your stock, and feed them properly, they look after you, which is why we are so keen on our farm, to get the right 'balance' of quality grass/crop, get a good summer should hit 4000 litres from forage, good = rain. Pm us on the bull, you never know, junior might be tempted, or our fertility goes wrong, never any harm in asking !

 

[JohnGalway]

Grow a 20ac of wholecrop and let the taxpayers shout you the course

When you come over to do the relief milking I'll let you have a bash at that on my land.......



.........and I'll video it for everyone here

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Gotta love that mate!

We're starting phase 1 of our tree planting next weekend. 1500 trees and shrubs including 5 hectares of agroforestery. Phase two is planned for november.

Oh, sweet. I hadn't a clue you were doing that! Shame I'm so far away, or I'd shine up my planting-spade and lend a hand.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

A very enlightening book and well ahead of its time.

I really enjoyed the emphasis he placed on "observation" and "the meeting of cows and grass", it helped me relax at grazing and simply watch the stock more.

Once again though, there seems to be that general undertone of growing more and faster.. is that valid?
I know it's the title of the book...

Thus in Voisin's world it is counterproductive to let the cattle "remain so long that they destroy it with their hooves" but it's still worth the time to pause and be critical:

'Is that why we're still talking in days of recovery and not weeks'?
'Is that why he's saying to use some nitrogenous fertiliser to boost the growth of the pasture'

And that vital sigmoid curve...

'what happens if we sit at the bottom of it for longer, that is if we actually graze with the intent of increasing the plant recovery time instead of always seeking to decrease it'

I probably rate it as one of the best grazing references ever written because of the way the author sees the world .

 

[Fenwick]

Oh, sweet. I hadn't a clue you were doing that! Shame I'm so far away, or I'd shine up my planting-spade and lend a hand.

Would have been good to have you here.

Got a couple of dozen volunteers for thé agroforestery so i think it should go ok.

Thé rest are for new hedgerows, and it is contractéd out (thanks to a grant).

We have planned an average of 1000 trees and shrubs a year for thé next Ten years.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Would have been good to have you here.

Got a couple of dozen volunteers for thé agroforestery so i think it should go ok.

Thé rest are for new hedgerows, and it is contractéd out (thanks to a grant).

We have planned an average of 1000 trees and shrubs a year for thé next Ten years.

Great stuff did you get assistance with the design work, or DIY?
Every time I think I came up with a great design, I see/hear something that trumps it!

Cool grey day here, I am going to cut my tagasaste seedlings up and attempt to root as many cuttings as possible, so we have plenty of plants to dot out when the seasons change.
These have quite a low germination, around 30%, so it is possibly the fastest way for us to begin.
(The idea is that the stock will eventually graze the seedpods and spread the trees for us, hence using the tree lucerne/tree medic as the of our early plantings).

I'm considering using my subsoiler at 75-80cm deep and planting 'in the rip' after we put the keyline rips in properly - because of the old fencing design the fields were ripped individually but I think it will be better to keep them going right across the ranch, following the contour.

 

[Fenwick]

Great stuff did you get assistance with the design work, or DIY?
Every time I think I came up with a great design, I see/hear something that trumps it!

Cool grey day here, I am going to cut my tagasaste seedlings up and attempt to root as many cuttings as possible, so we have plenty of plants to dot out when the seasons change.
These have quite a low germination, around 30%, so it is possibly the fastest way for us to begin.
(The idea is that the stock will eventually graze the seedpods and spread the trees for us, hence using the tree lucerne/tree medic as the of our early plantings).

I'm considering using my subsoiler at 75-80cm deep and planting 'in the rip' after we put the keyline rips in properly - because of the old fencing design the fields were ripped individually but I think it will be better to keep them going right across the ranch, following the contour.

I think I must have changes thé design a dozen times. Did have some professionnel help, which is good for thé technical side, but it's not easy getting thé adviser to understand my context.

I think their are massive compromises to bé made in an agroforestery project, between thé needs of thé animals, thé trees, systèm performance and thé logistics. Thé Idea is to produced a saleable le product which means that things liké harvest effeciency have to bé included, and access for machines,. Which in turn means idéal technical things liké planting precisely on contour becomes unfeasible.

Agréé with thé subsoiler, this is exactly how we planned it too. But thé field is now too wet for a Big machine. Should have planted it at thé end of novembre (which is when it was planned) but covid put a stop to that.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Thanks. I'm stuck with exactly what to do regarding the contour rips and where the lane (tree) rips intersect if I do both. I think the contouring must take priority to making the planting easy!

There's the possibility of creating the dreaded "under runner" if I run a continuous rip that doesn't follow contour, as too much water flow will easily shift a well-aggregated soil.

So these may need to be broken and/or terminated with a decent "big tree" like a silver wattle (acacia) or a weeping willow.

Are you using a lot of different species per row, or rows of mostly same species, what do you like to do?

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Thanks. I'm stuck with exactly what to do regarding the contour rips and where the lane (tree) rips intersect if I do both. I think the contouring must take priority to making the planting easy!

There's the possibility of creating the dreaded "under runner" if I run a continuous rip that doesn't follow contour, as too much water flow will easily shift a well-aggregated soil.

So these may need to be broken and/or terminated with a decent "big tree" like a silver wattle (acacia) or a weeping willow.

Are you using a lot of different species per row, or rows of mostly same species, what do you like to do?

Can you make the contour rips deeper than the tree ones?

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

An interesting slide from an ORFC panel today on natural anthelmitics and ABs:

It seems performance has been measured as better in lambs grazing low challenge pasture than in lambs that are wormed but still grazing high challenge pasture...

 

[ShooTa]

john was that jairo restrepos concoction that elain was putting down?

 

[JohnGalway]

john was that jairo restrepos concoction that elain was putting down?

No, someone asked a question about a video Richard Perkins made.

 

[JohnGalway]

@Guleesh (cos you're not posting enough ) 10th May is this years lambing date here. It's really cheering up the neighbours in these Covid times.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Can you make the contour rips deeper than the tree ones?

I'm not too sure if I really need to rip lines for planting after really giving it some consideration - and going for a walk tonight - I am probably better to just concentrate on getting the keylines right, and getting all the pipe rolled out for a start.

 

[Guleesh]

@Guleesh (cos you're not posting enough ) 10th May is this years lambing date here. It's really cheering up the neighbours in these Covid times.

10th May still seems sensible enough, We aimed for 1st May but put the tups out a couple days early as ewes were gathered in, and knowing in-bye grass was finite decided to just get on with it. we'll have plenty ewes lambing after 10th May ourselves, probably including one ewe who travelled a couple of miles to find a neighbours tup yesterday. The only real downside to later lambing we had were younger and thriving sheep doing a little too well on the May flush and later lambs being bigger than we'd like, this year we plan to condition score and run leader-follower groups whilst in for lambing.

True I haven't been posting much, we've just been busy, a new baby in November and workload have kept me on the go. also if I'm really honest I'm still just getting over a ridiculous conflict that some local dog walkers started with us over Christmas. it's just left me a bit tired and deflated, I've been following the thread but unfortunately I haven't had many positive or constructive things to say.

Everything's just ticking along here, Grass growth has been quite good up till now, The ewes are in reasonable but not fantastic condition, they should do fine out on the heather though. The hoggs are working their way through the last of the in-bye grass left after tupping. they're a bit on the small side but fit and healthy. We're just waiting for spring really. At this time of year for us it's just chores, there's not that much managing to do.

 

[Fenwick]

I'm not too sure if I really need to rip lines for planting after really giving it some consideration - and going for a walk tonight - I am probably better to just concentrate on getting the keylines right, and getting all the pipe rolled out for a start.

Planting behind a subsoiler is useful if your spacings are close. Otherwise individual holes are fine but if you use an auger it tends to slicken the inside of the hole preventing root spread so you have to go back and open up the sides of the hole.

Of course a spade works fine too. I suppose it depends how any trees you have to plant and how many helpers there are!

One of the biggest problems I found was that if planting on contour then straight fencing becomes difficult. I couldn't get contoured planting and straight fencing to fit together. How do you see this working Pete?

Perhaps it would have been good to keyline the whole site, then put the fences up and plant the trees wherever it suits.

I've now had it confirmed from numerous sources that it is essential to subsoil each side of the tree lines witin the first 5 years of planting. So having a plantation on or near contour becomes more important.

True I haven't been posting much, we've just been busy, a new baby in November and workload have kept me on the go

Congrats on the new baby!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Planting behind a subsoiler is useful if your spacings are close. Otherwise individual holes are fine but if you use an auger it tends to slicken the inside of the hole preventing root spread so you have to go back and open up the sides of the hole.

Of course a spade works fine too. I suppose it depends how any trees you have to plant and how many helpers there are!

One of the biggest problems I found was that if planting on contour then straight fencing becomes difficult. I couldn't get contoured planting and straight fencing to fit together. How do you see this working Pete?

Perhaps it would have been good to keyline the whole site, then put the fences up and plant the trees wherever it suits.

I've now had it confirmed from numerous sources that it is essential to subsoil each side of the tree lines witin the first 5 years of planting. So having a plantation on or near contour becomes more important.





Congrats on the new baby!

I actually don't see it working/ can't see it!

That's why I asked about your design process, I think mine will be "work it out as we go" rather than be all mathematical about it.
The keylines will intersect the lanes at unknown places, I guess that is how I'll get to recreate 'chaos'?
A wattle here, a rata or other native tree there, a weeping willow or a few poplar there

The lanes themselves will largely be straight lines.. these will maybe have a bit of a pattern or theme to them as we fill them in.
Maybe tree medic, flax, couple of sugar willows, tagasaste, another flax, and a different legume (kowhai or kakabeak) and a tree daisy.
I like the straight-line and the pattern, but nature doesn't do this.
I'm thinking eventually we'll be down to about 1.8- 2m between the plants in the row, but that will take time!