"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
Ed Ed

funny how some things happen....just put down a book reading about cows and high protein feed, it said while cows will tolerate a high protein diet and produce high volumes of milk they will do better with a diet with carbs and a brix reading over 12, Don’t really know much about cows myself so does this make any sense?
Carbs for condition. Protein for production.
 

Tyedyetom

Member
Livestock Farmer
I can see I’ve opened a can of worms with the urea comment!
I understand the negative affects it can have and am not pushing its use, my comment was ment that a lot of farmers will be using fertiliser even if they don’t want to. And that with an all grass system there would be enough protein in silage with out the need for an extra source. When I was working at home our autumn calving cows would self feed grass silage and have 6-7 kg ofwheatgluten in the parlour. They Would not produce high yields about 1.6-1.8 kg milk solids through the winter with a flat lactation and hold condition well.
One of the reasons my wife and I decided to leave the family farm and look for a tenancy of our own was that we didn’t agree with the reliance on chemical fert to keep and artificially high stocking rate.
it was just an observation, I didn’t realise somfarmer had maize too. A different context.
I’ll be at the back of the class now🤦‍♂️
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
no, will try and find it, did grow peas and beans for silage, peas were ok, beans proved to be uncuttable, so combined.
lucerne, the best ground to grow it on, are were we plan the winter feeding, although that might alter. The biggest drawback trying to grow energy and protien, on a limited acreage, is you lose grass ground, for both grazing and cutting, seems a 1 and grass. Even though we have taken on extra acres, they are grass only, but they will take the pressure of here, which is why we are looking ! Summer might well see a much lower stocking rate as well. We have been scattering clover seed all round, and have chicory, vetch and plantain in new leys, plantain very obviously likes our soil type, gone mental, and a lot of 'weed' plantain already here. We have h/rye, and winter vetch in, so we will see the result. Farming is all about finding the 'right' balance, either by working with, or chucking money at, and am quite certain the first is the most profitable.
Here you go: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/sowing-peas.191506/
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I can see I’ve opened a can of worms with the urea comment!
I understand the negative affects it can have and am not pushing its use, my comment was ment that a lot of farmers will be using fertiliser even if they don’t want to. And that with an all grass system there would be enough protein in silage with out the need for an extra source. When I was working at home our autumn calving cows would self feed grass silage and have 6-7 kg ofwheatgluten in the parlour. They Would not produce high yields about 1.6-1.8 kg milk solids through the winter with a flat lactation and hold condition well.
One of the reasons my wife and I decided to leave the family farm and look for a tenancy of our own was that we didn’t agree with the reliance on chemical fert to keep and artificially high stocking rate.
it was just an observation, I didn’t realise somfarmer had maize too. A different context.
I’ll be at the back of the class now🤦‍♂️
It's a good observation, though. Especially the bit about the 'artificially high stocking rate', what it can sometimes be is an artificial everything, including expectations?

By this I mean, we spent all that money on making things better than nature provided for us... better cows, better seeds, better straws than any bull we can afford... so why isn't it working out?

I was in a very similar place with my last dairy farm, as what you guys describe: Dad, the farm owner... he had very high expectations of what his cows "could produce" if he just kept throwing money into the ring.
Wheat, molasses, minerals, drugs, seeds... and all I could see was how much more profit he could make if he killed some passengers and killed his spending habit. It made my job very difficult.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
2017, shows how far KP has moved on since then ! Also makes me think how we have moved on from what we were doing 4/5 years ago, never been a true believer in urea as a fert, back in the 70's we used to inject urea in the grazing fields to last all summer, till that drought year, when it didn't work, last time we did that. In pure production increase, fert/urea is a cheap imput, that is reliable, and i have been using it for 50 odd years, and urea in cow rations for 25, which doesn't make it right, or wrong, just habitual. 5 years ago we were a highish imput, highish output herd, today the holstiens are gone, xbreds in, trying to rely on milk from grass, not a good idea, for the last three summers. We have moved from religiously ploughing, to d/d and tine cultivation, changed our crops, drought resistant grasses, herbs now in the ground, rapidly learning the value of sh1te, using it in targeted areas, and changing the way we graze, even listening to our aussie agrominist, and growing the hybrid rye, for silage, a really new crop, now sowing vetches with it, really go ahead stuff. As with all things ag, change has to be gradually phased in, if not, a big crop disaster, can be the finisher. Our change was prompted by 'seeing the writing on the wall', for the high/high milk production, and going block calving, alas, nature conspired against us, drought, and further changes made, until now, and further changes are in the pipeline, unfortunately, it can't all be done in one hit. I don't think any of us fully appreciate, how dynamic farming is, and how rapidly it can adapt to new 'requirements', whether our own, or the guvs. And yet, on here, we are talking about reusing, some of yesterdays proven methods. It scares me looking at the new technologies that are now, at the front of farming, not from the 'mindset', but from the cost side, it's easy to justify, if you WANT it, the pay back less so. Moving to the future, that is easy to predict, in the short term, guv will do all it possibly can, to stop food prices rising, leaving the gen public money to spend on manufactured goods, which help the tax man to increase his take. More reliance on imported food, to counter environmental measures decreasing home production, and helping our new global trade, with other poorer countries, where ag product, is the major export. And that leaves us at a xroads, my view is we have to completely concentrate on lowering our cost of production, including fixed costs, not easy at all, but, if imput costs keep rising, but product doesn't, things have to alter, and that, brings us to this thread, and that's what has put a very different angle on farming, in my view. What other options are there ? Intensification, technology etc, all add costs, labour etc, regen, or 'dog and stick' farming, are the only ones reducing cost, both these two, are pretty similar. Another long winded thread, ought to be medals, for x amount of words.
 
2017, shows how far KP has moved on since then ! Also makes me think how we have moved on from what we were doing 4/5 years ago, never been a true believer in urea as a fert, back in the 70's we used to inject urea in the grazing fields to last all summer, till that drought year, when it didn't work, last time we did that. In pure production increase, fert/urea is a cheap imput, that is reliable, and i have been using it for 50 odd years, and urea in cow rations for 25, which doesn't make it right, or wrong, just habitual. 5 years ago we were a highish imput, highish output herd, today the holstiens are gone, xbreds in, trying to rely on milk from grass, not a good idea, for the last three summers. We have moved from religiously ploughing, to d/d and tine cultivation, changed our crops, drought resistant grasses, herbs now in the ground, rapidly learning the value of sh1te, using it in targeted areas, and changing the way we graze, even listening to our aussie agrominist, and growing the hybrid rye, for silage, a really new crop, now sowing vetches with it, really go ahead stuff. As with all things ag, change has to be gradually phased in, if not, a big crop disaster, can be the finisher. Our change was prompted by 'seeing the writing on the wall', for the high/high milk production, and going block calving, alas, nature conspired against us, drought, and further changes made, until now, and further changes are in the pipeline, unfortunately, it can't all be done in one hit. I don't think any of us fully appreciate, how dynamic farming is, and how rapidly it can adapt to new 'requirements', whether our own, or the guvs. And yet, on here, we are talking about reusing, some of yesterdays proven methods. It scares me looking at the new technologies that are now, at the front of farming, not from the 'mindset', but from the cost side, it's easy to justify, if you WANT it, the pay back less so. Moving to the future, that is easy to predict, in the short term, guv will do all it possibly can, to stop food prices rising, leaving the gen public money to spend on manufactured goods, which help the tax man to increase his take. More reliance on imported food, to counter environmental measures decreasing home production, and helping our new global trade, with other poorer countries, where ag product, is the major export. And that leaves us at a xroads, my view is we have to completely concentrate on lowering our cost of production, including fixed costs, not easy at all, but, if imput costs keep rising, but product doesn't, things have to alter, and that, brings us to this thread, and that's what has put a very different angle on farming, in my view. What other options are there ? Intensification, technology etc, all add costs, labour etc, regen, or 'dog and stick' farming, are the only ones reducing cost, both these two, are pretty similar. Another long winded thread, ought to be medals, for x amount of words.
Variable costs are fixed, but fixed costs are variable...
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
It will be interesting to see what the next few summers hold, also.

2017 we were only a few months into it... and bang, what's all this about "summer safe" when even the 80-year olds are worried. But then it rains again in summer (we've had 30mm or so today?) and I'm glad I took this route.... because it works in every season

planting different stuff... well, it works some years and most years if they are predictable. But maybe the mindset around farming here is also a bit different, most "low input" farms are only low input because they can't afford more inputs... I can afford to pretty much do anything I want, including buying new drills and a combine and grain towers etc if I thought it was the right way to make a better return on investment. Or buy a few fancy genetics and start a stud... or buy 1000 acres... but the best way to improve my return is none of them, but simply to reduce investment and keep my expectations of returns to what the season will give us.

Low expectation = less disappointment risk
 

awkward

Member
Location
kerry ireland
Yes, this.
Too much protein starts dragging energy out of "the cow" just to process the protein

Just like running more overdrive on a supercharger, it gets to a point that it's actually taking more power out of the fuel than it puts in, which is why they make bigger blowers and bigger engines for "more-ons"

Cows run on microbes the way engines run on air, hence the salesfolk always want us to look at fuel
It's a good observation, though. Especially the bit about the 'artificially high stocking rate', what it can sometimes be is an artificial everything, including expectations?

By this I mean, we spent all that money on making things better than nature provided for us... better cows, better seeds, better straws than any bull we can afford... so why isn't it working out?

I was in a very similar place with my last dairy farm, as what you guys describe: Dad, the farm owner... he had very high expectations of what his cows "could produce" if he just kept throwing money into the ring.
Wheat, molasses, minerals, drugs, seeds... and all I could see was how much more profit he could make if he killed some passengers and killed his spending habit. It made my job very difficult.
Can you give us more of an insight to the changes and outcomes you were targeting to improve outcomes on this farm

Didn't mean to quote the first one
 

GC74

Member
it's amazing how feed firms change their minds, reacting to new research, never an apology for getting it wrong, before. Soya/rape, and maize, was a good diet, or so they told us, not long ago, we were being told 19/20 % total protien, in a dairy ration, now it's 16%, and some are saying 14%, that is quite achievable with grass/clover silage, but, there's always a but, the cows need energy, to get i/c, and at turnout, when grass could be 20%, that's what we need to solve, We started growing maize in the early 70's, on uncles farm, which was seriously dry, and it was brilliant, energy, + enormous bulk, 18ft was quite common, we did 1 row at a time, then 2, then contractor, as soon as one was near ! So, maize has been a 'must' have crop, cover the ground with sh1t, away it went. But maize will be legislated out, and that will be farmers fault, it's grown where it shouldn't be, and it's not a bovine natural crop. We keep looking at stopping, but still keep growing some, in our case, h/rye followed by maize, gives us 30 ton/acre, and we have been short of forage to many times. Our thoughts going forward, is to look at buying maize meal in, we want to build food stocks up, first. With the emphasis on better grazing cows, and as we go forward, will probably wean our self's off the maize, by changing our grazing etc, and not chasing litres. Our accountants have basically said they have no high imput, high output, herds making much profit, it's good fun, planning to jump of that wheel, just got to slow it down a bit, first. Y/s do need higher protien to start off with.
Trying to remember but pretty sure my wife's uncle was going on about cutting maize when it was about 18 in high and doing multiple cuts a year....pretty sure it was reasonable high in protein close to a complete diet....ever tried anything like that?
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Can you give us more of an insight to the changes and outcomes you were targeting to improve outcomes on this farm

Didn't mean to quote the first one
I just wanted to make the boss more money, and help sort out his herd's problems.

The year I started was a low payout year, so going in we had the discussion that we couldn't really afford to "waste much"... looking at his herd, well, McDonalds was really missing out on about 80 cows (old, udders, flat feet, 3 titters etc) but then it was revealed we were contracted to use 260T of wheat and he expected to use maybe 100T of urea

🤯

and that his main goal was to get 400kgMS/cow and this would help him buy back all the land his family once owned in the district

🤯

so he'd just bought another 40ha and another 80 cows and employed another man as part of the plan, I think his farm advisor had sussed him out very quickly and sold him a system. But you could see how precarious it was, because a dry summer leaves a dirty great hole in the earnings and the costs are pretty much set going in, combined with a 30% reduction in revenue anyway then it looked as if only the staff and bank were going to be making money (c. 5% interest rates).

I reckoned that was a sh!t setup and I told him I would make him more money than I cost him, and made him 5x my salary... and pretty much all of it was down to not spending money lighting fires and spending more money putting them out again.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Trying to remember but pretty sure my wife's uncle was going on about cutting maize when it was about 18 in high and doing multiple cuts a year....pretty sure it was reasonable high in protein close to a complete diet....ever tried anything like that?
no, certainly not seen that recommended anywhere, however we were on guernsey with some other farmers, several years back, and we saw a crop, that was definitely maize, very leafy, 4ft high, and no cobs, in oct, we were stumped, but i think you might just have enlightened me ! 3 years back, we were silaging maize 18 ins high, at least it had a cob, very choosy where maize goes in now, and yet that ground had produced very good maize crops previously.
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
Trying to remember but pretty sure my wife's uncle was going on about cutting maize when it was about 18 in high and doing multiple cuts a year....pretty sure it was reasonable high in protein close to a complete diet....ever tried anything like that?
thats interesting ive never heard that before.
so thaat means no cob at all ?
and would it be established enough to come back well at 18 inches?
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
no, certainly not seen that recommended anywhere, however we were on guernsey with some other farmers, several years back, and we saw a crop, that was definitely maize, very leafy, 4ft high, and no cobs, in oct, we were stumped, but i think you might just have enlightened me ! 3 years back, we were silaging maize 18 ins high, at least it had a cob, very choosy where maize goes in now, and yet that ground had produced very good maize crops previously.
In our experience maize either does very well or very badly. The trouble is if it's badly you're too far into the year for a plan b.

It certainly has high potential to wreck your soil structure and biology too.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
I just wanted to make the boss more money, and help sort out his herd's problems.

The year I started was a low payout year, so going in we had the discussion that we couldn't really afford to "waste much"... looking at his herd, well, McDonalds was really missing out on about 80 cows (old, udders, flat feet, 3 titters etc) but then it was revealed we were contracted to use 260T of wheat and he expected to use maybe 100T of urea

🤯

and that his main goal was to get 400kgMS/cow and this would help him buy back all the land his family once owned in the district

🤯

so he'd just bought another 40ha and another 80 cows and employed another man as part of the plan, I think his farm advisor had sussed him out very quickly and sold him a system. But you could see how precarious it was, because a dry summer leaves a dirty great hole in the earnings and the costs are pretty much set going in, combined with a 30% reduction in revenue anyway then it looked as if only the staff and bank were going to be making money (c. 5% interest rates).

I reckoned that was a sh!t setup and I told him I would make him more money than I cost him, and made him 5x my salary... and pretty much all of it was down to not spending money lighting fires and spending more money putting them out again.

we have been led by the nose, both through breeding and advice, to think big is better, we are not in a food shortage time, but farm as though we are, the result is cheap food, lower profit's. The winners are the guv, and gen public, it keeps the food costs down. Then there are all those 'consultants', often failed farmers, wearing pink corduroy trousers, telling us, your doing it all wrong, spend money, produce more, work harder etc, sometimes wonder if guv gives them those pink/yellow clothes, as a bonus. Usually politely listen, and say, 'no thanks', and quickly forget. Farm walks, on the other hand, usually pick up a tip on them though, you can SEE the results.
 

Crofter64

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Quebec, Canada
This is more regeneration that regenerative ag... but interesting nonetheless... imagine if we stopped selling the landscape's "food" all the time??View attachment 936602View attachment 936603
I haven’t had the chance to check this thread till now as I’ve been busy with beef deliveries. I was not pleased when the butcher told me they were now charging their clients 60.00$ per beef hide they had to skin , as that was their cost. They no longer get paid for hides or butcher’s waste but have to pay to have it removed. Previously it was a money maker. The only thing that has changed is that there is no longer any competition in waste removal and the smart removers now make money when they pick up and when they sell. I am going to start taking all my hides home and dumping them in the woods.
 

awkward

Member
Location
kerry ireland
I haven’t had the chance to check this thread till now as I’ve been busy with beef deliveries. I was not pleased when the butcher told me they were now charging their clients 60.00$ per beef hide they had to skin , as that was their cost. They no longer get paid for hides or butcher’s waste but have to pay to have it removed. Previously it was a money maker. The only thing that has changed is that there is no longer any competition in waste removal and the smart removers now make money when they pick up and when they sell. I am going to start taking all my hides home and dumping them in the woods.
No doubt but the butcher has a cut from the offal guys, be my thinking anyway.
 

Crofter64

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Quebec, Canada
I tried one of the Charlie Arnott episodes on Working Cows but I only lasted 10 minutes. He was going on about making compost or tea or something and how he chucked in animal organs so it could 'organise itself'. That had me skipping on to the next episode. Can you convince me that I've been too hasty in dismissing CA?
I don’t know about putting organs or small animal carcass directly into the tea but Geoff Lawton who taught me the Permaculture Design course said to keep ‘road kill’ or unwanted bits of butchered animals in the freezer ready to chuck into compost piles as you build them. He said they were heat/ compost accelerators. So that’s what I do now. Does it do any good? Can’t say but so far it hasn’t done any harm.
 

Crofter64

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Quebec, Canada
No doubt but the butcher has a cut from the offal guys, be my thinking anyway.
I don’t think so.all three butchers I use regularly ( I’m very lucky to have a choice between: 1)they pick up and do everything, 2)They kill here and remove,3) I bring in a killed animal and they cut it up) nand they have all recently been complaining about the rising cost of all waste removal.
I’m not happy either. Hung weight 650lb carcass was 703.00$ canadian cut up and frozen ,not including the killing which was done in our yard in the snow:oops:
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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