"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Kiwi Pete]

It’s only down 5 feet?

I have one in the yard that’s between 5 and 6, it’s done until May or June every year. Not a chance in hell it’ll work. Most around here aim for at least 8 feet unless you want to risk issues.

Interesting, thanks. How many months a year would you be frozen (for intents and purposes?) because an oldtimer told me to go a foot deeper for each month of freeze

 

[Blaithin]

Interesting, thanks. How many months a year would you be frozen (for intents and purposes?) because an oldtimer told me to go a foot deeper for each month of freeze

Depends on the year. 6 months for sure.

This year it’s not that frozen at all so far. But that’s changing in a hurry.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Cheers. Sounds like my oldtimer wasn't far wrong - even our water mains are less than a metre deep, not keen to swap climates! Here we measure things in days, not weeks.... that's why grazing is problematic in this type of context, one big lightbulb moment was when you were discussing your recovery time

 

[Blaithin]

Frost isn’t a one size thing. Early snowfall protects the ground, it won’t freeze so deep. Sometimes at all.

No snow and a deep freeze, frost is deeper.

Heavy traffic area, the frost will get pushed down.

Warm spell, frost will start to come out of the top bit but still be down in the lower layers.

 

[Fake it ‘til you make it]

whatever we think, or say, to the public, it sounds good, the fact that it will throw the whole system into chaos, be unenforceable, doesn't matter, those poor little lambikins won't be abused anymore.
In the 'letters' today, in farmers weekly, how will regenerative ag feed the masses ? and the author goes on to basically say it can't. Citing, growing populations, wouldn't work on his soil (min til), the need to increase animals, to produce the required amount of fym, in contrast to being told to eat less meat, poor management leading to pollution, increased cost of food, and therefor cannot economically survive, by farming re-gen.
Having been deprived of my transport for a few days, been quite happily looking at the mymarid's of info on the net.
And been having a really good pondering session, the first conclusion, wish i could start farming from a young age again, to late for me now, and probably getting to far ahead of son ! The biggest gains of regen/holistic, are in the semi desert areas, the opportunity to increase food production, and peace, in those areas are vast, how you can alter the 'desert' by cattle management, was nearly unbelievable, so that's one gain, reducing the need of those communities on food aid from the richer countries. It's an interesting subject, because regen farming, can be very intensive, looking at joe salatin, how he uses the different 'types' of stock to complement each other, by using one, to capitalise on the previous one, has done, and working it all in a big circle, very impressive, and very profitable, and highly stocked as well. There was an experimental farm, name slips me, growing regen maize, with no fert/spray, against normal maize with 'everything', and beating it on yield. All of us on here, recognise the importance of rotation, which modern ag, inc me, has conveniently forgotten about. Then an article about growing crops, in the desert, using irrigation, which after seeing the regen stuff, didn't really seem right. The big question or test, is can we do it on our farms, reducing imput, but increasing output, i don't know the answer, but i think if we went slowly, and carefully, we probably could, the slow and careful approach, so as not to get a disaster, and write it off, as nuts. Probably the biggest obstacle, it is the complete reversal to what we have been taught, nor do i think that it is a gospel, modern ag, has given us tools to use, whether fert, sprays or machinery, they are good if used sensibly, ideally we would not need them !
So, do you think we could feed the world, with regen ag, views please.

Another question is, can we in the UK, with our cost base, ever compete producing commodities in international markets? Efficiency is hitting the bullseye, effectiveness is aiming at the right target.

 

[Crofter64]

It’s only down 5 feet?

I have one in the yard that’s between 5 and 6, it’s done until May or June every year. Not a chance in hell it’ll work. Most around here aim for at least 8 feet unless you want to risk issues.

4-5 is standard around here.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

whatever we think, or say, to the public, it sounds good, the fact that it will throw the whole system into chaos, be unenforceable, doesn't matter, those poor little lambikins won't be abused anymore.
In the 'letters' today, in farmers weekly, how will regenerative ag feed the masses ? and the author goes on to basically say it can't. Citing, growing populations, wouldn't work on his soil (min til), the need to increase animals, to produce the required amount of fym, in contrast to being told to eat less meat, poor management leading to pollution, increased cost of food, and therefor cannot economically survive, by farming re-gen.
Having been deprived of my transport for a few days, been quite happily looking at the mymarid's of info on the net.
And been having a really good pondering session, the first conclusion, wish i could start farming from a young age again, to late for me now, and probably getting to far ahead of son ! The biggest gains of regen/holistic, are in the semi desert areas, the opportunity to increase food production, and peace, in those areas are vast, how you can alter the 'desert' by cattle management, was nearly unbelievable, so that's one gain, reducing the need of those communities on food aid from the richer countries. It's an interesting subject, because regen farming, can be very intensive, looking at joe salatin, how he uses the different 'types' of stock to complement each other, by using one, to capitalise on the previous one, has done, and working it all in a big circle, very impressive, and very profitable, and highly stocked as well. There was an experimental farm, name slips me, growing regen maize, with no fert/spray, against normal maize with 'everything', and beating it on yield. All of us on here, recognise the importance of rotation, which modern ag, inc me, has conveniently forgotten about. Then an article about growing crops, in the desert, using irrigation, which after seeing the regen stuff, didn't really seem right. The big question or test, is can we do it on our farms, reducing imput, but increasing output, i don't know the answer, but i think if we went slowly, and carefully, we probably could, the slow and careful approach, so as not to get a disaster, and write it off, as nuts. Probably the biggest obstacle, it is the complete reversal to what we have been taught, nor do i think that it is a gospel, modern ag, has given us tools to use, whether fert, sprays or machinery, they are good if used sensibly, ideally we would not need them !
So, do you think we could feed the world, with regen ag, views please.

Yes, I think Regen Ag could feed the world. It would be a huge change to the food system though with much less processed food.

Our biggest hurdle is all the very wealthy vested interest companies making sure it doesn't get the chance.

 

[som farmer]

Another question is, can we in the UK, with our cost base, ever compete producing commodities in international markets? Efficiency is hitting the bullseye, effectiveness is aiming at the right target.

that is exactly the point i always make, guv, and s/mkts will do all they can to stop food costs rising, can't blame the guv, so from a profit to us point, we have to reduce the COP, and that is not easily done, most of us are pretty tight already. The 'experts' tell us produce more, dilute the costs, technology etc, utter load off bullsh1t, all that achieves is more product, more diluted expense, more work, same end price, and mug, printed on our foreheads.
However, as the WHO say's, world population is increasing, and they have to be fed, unless aids, covid or some plague doesn't thin us out, and then the 'experts' tell us, only 60 harvests left, chuck in climate change, and corporate greed, and farming looks quite lucrative long term. It doesn't answer the question of how do we solve the riddle of pop growth, climate and greed, though. With only 60 harvests left, and current guv views re-greening/climate, those 60 might easily become 50, if land is reforested. In the search for cheaper food, new systems are being created, vertical farming, floating dairies, gm etc, if you count set up costs, don't think the av farmer can do much, other than gm.
If we take as true, that farming can reverse carbon increase, and be carbon negative, and feed the population, how do we get that message across, to a world that believes the opposite, until that can be addressed we are still being seen as the cause of climate change, with oil.

 

[Fake it ‘til you make it]

that is exactly the point i always make, guv, and s/mkts will do all they can to stop food costs rising, can't blame the guv, so from a profit to us point, we have to reduce the COP, and that is not easily done, most of us are pretty tight already. The 'experts' tell us produce more, dilute the costs, technology etc, utter load off bullsh1t, all that achieves is more product, more diluted expense, more work, same end price, and mug, printed on our foreheads.
However, as the WHO say's, world population is increasing, and they have to be fed, unless aids, covid or some plague doesn't thin us out, and then the 'experts' tell us, only 60 harvests left, chuck in climate change, and corporate greed, and farming looks quite lucrative long term. It doesn't answer the question of how do we solve the riddle of pop growth, climate and greed, though. With only 60 harvests left, and current guv views re-greening/climate, those 60 might easily become 50, if land is reforested. In the search for cheaper food, new systems are being created, vertical farming, floating dairies, gm etc, if you count set up costs, don't think the av farmer can do much, other than gm.
If we take as true, that farming can reverse carbon increase, and be carbon negative, and feed the population, how do we get that message across, to a world that believes the opposite, until that can be addressed we are still being seen as the cause of climate change, with oil.

@som farmer did you watch Clive’s recent Q&A with DEFRA on YouTube? I lost count of the number of times the two Defra officials said they want farming to be PROFITABLE. I actually found it very surprising. What that profit looks/ feels like remains to be seen. I can’t see them being interventionist in terms of supply and demand. I think their vision of profitable farming might be along the lines of: “Here’s some money (£100 acre?) for looking after the environment, which covers the now reduced rental value of your land. The rental value is lower due to all the environmental handcuffs you are now wearing. That gives you a profit. If you lose money/ make additional profit from your farming enterprise, that is your lookout...”

 

[crashbox]

Hi all, new to the thread but read with great interest. Just wonder if there are any practical tips for regenerative grazing of dairy cows? Would it be different to beef/sheep?

Intend to trial it this year as as my soil is so dry and sandy, ryegrass is completely unsuitable.

For what it's worth here's my effort at a regenerative reseed mix, uses cocksfoot, festulolium, chicory, plantain and legumes. Plus of course nature's offering from the seed bank!

Time will tell how we get on...

Thanks.
CB

 

[onesiedale]

The basic principles are the same. High stocking density, 2 x daily moves, plenty of rest.
Keep an eye on this thread, post plenty of pictures and ask lots of questions please. ('cos I'm learning how to milk cows off it too!)

 

[Blaithin]

Jinxed it. Well at the barn doesn’t have water this morning.

Well man is coming with a steamer and hopefully that and heat tape gets it going again.

 

[Woolless]

Hi all, new to the thread but read with great interest. Just wonder if there are any practical tips for regenerative grazing of dairy cows? Would it be different to beef/sheep?

Intend to trial it this year as as my soil is so dry and sandy, ryegrass is completely unsuitable.

For what it's worth here's my effort at a regenerative reseed mix, uses cocksfoot, festulolium, chicory, plantain and legumes. Plus of course nature's offering from the seed bank!

Time will tell how we get on...

Thanks.
CB

There is quite a bit about milking cows on this type of system in 'The art and science of grazing' by Sarah Flack.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Hi all, new to the thread but read with great interest. Just wonder if there are any practical tips for regenerative grazing of dairy cows? Would it be different to beef/sheep?

Intend to trial it this year as as my soil is so dry and sandy, ryegrass is completely unsuitable.

For what it's worth here's my effort at a regenerative reseed mix, uses cocksfoot, festulolium, chicory, plantain and legumes. Plus of course nature's offering from the seed bank!

Time will tell how we get on...

Thanks.
CB

The principles work with any class of stock, in any climate really.
Really the main "idea" is that you keep control of your animals as best you can - don't "let them all spread out" in the false belief it will get more feed down their necks, aka rotational grazing.

This lends itself to selective grazing as the density isn't maintained, it's only for a short period; instead, look to ways that you maintain a good even density, and they learn to graze in a less selective manner.

Most dairies are 90% of the way there, but possibly hurt their grass by being too kind to their stock - a cow is a lot tougher than yesterday's regrowth, if you get what I mean?

Keep them moving forward, never back "to tidy up"

 

[Crofter64]

Moving the hay bunk forward to access new row of bales:

And we have a customer:

sheep and calves can access from the side as well as have a similar set up at the back with 2nd cut hay.
Planted the windbreak on the windward side years ago. I have two of these bunks going ( this one holds 48 round bales) plus a round bale feeder and a couple of smaller feeding stations so even the weakest animals have access to feed , choice and exercise.12 cows can stand side by side and feed here.

 

[som farmer]

and i thought you were going to set that lot alight, to thaw your water troughs.
pretty neat though.

 

[som farmer]

Hi all, new to the thread but read with great interest. Just wonder if there are any practical tips for regenerative grazing of dairy cows? Would it be different to beef/sheep?

Intend to trial it this year as as my soil is so dry and sandy, ryegrass is completely unsuitable.

For what it's worth here's my effort at a regenerative reseed mix, uses cocksfoot, festulolium, chicory, plantain and legumes. Plus of course nature's offering from the seed bank!

Time will tell how we get on...

Thanks.
CB

not the only one, 3 summers of buying forage for summer buffer, and for winter, has made us into ardent followers.
in many ways, us dairy farmers can quite easily adapt, we move the cows twice a day, already into the habit. We couldn't get our leys to last, we just dried out. Been growing 20+ acres of forage rape, for summer feed, then kale for outwintering, hopefully we should survive another dry summer, have taken on another 70 acres, with another 28 in the pipe line, without that luck, another dry one would have finished us for dairy.
There is one huge problem with this thread, a question leads to another, and another, and another. If i was asked for the 1 best thing we have learnt, it would be keep your cows moving round, never let them 'clean up', all they do, is take the best grass down to the roots, and leave the rest 1/2 chomped, then the 'bad' takes over from the 'good'. Once you change your 'mindset', there is a wealth of information on here, and on the net, use it, and enjoy it, and let us know how you are getting on.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

The other trick is in seeing that feed is not ready to graze, yet, just because it looks like food.

"Stop eating half-cooked potatoes and you find out they are sweet"

 

[crashbox]

The principles work with any class of stock, in any climate really.
Really the main "idea" is that you keep control of your animals as best you can - don't "let them all spread out" in the false belief it will get more feed down their necks, aka rotational grazing.

This lends itself to selective grazing as the density isn't maintained, it's only for a short period; instead, look to ways that you maintain a good even density, and they learn to graze in a less selective manner.

Most dairies are 90% of the way there, but possibly hurt their grass by being too kind to their stock - a cow is a lot tougher than yesterday's regrowth, if you get what I mean?

Keep them moving forward, never back "to tidy up"

Sounds good solid advice.

My main worry is I'm all year round calving; kicking out a 10,000+ litre dairy cow in peak lactation, and asking her to eat stemmy grass may be a recipe for disaster...?

So I'm wondering if the solution is split into a highs and lows group, and just do mob grazing for the lows?

 

[awkward]

If the cow is grazing does she have to be a 10000l animal to leave the same profit,