"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Henarar]

That's just because I'm a lazy barsteward

if it looking good made me more money then rest assured it would look good - but it just costs

We have loads of machinery here as I have said before but most of it is quite old and has found its value level, I am not bothered if it sits in the shed/stinging nettles for a few years between being used

 

[Johnny Whiteheads]

There was a big loooong video I posted up about a month ago. Set aside 3½ hours

The reason I remembered about it, Bowland Bob had finally found time to watch it and said he (Dick) appears to almost contradict the "recipe" promoted by various other grazing gurus.
Judy/Gerrish says "leave lots of grass behind"
Jaime says "take 90% of the grass"

Dick, says "mix it all up as much as possible"

in a nutshell

Got around to this video a few days ago, really interesting. I think the grazing naturally approach might really work in my context. (Hill, Peat soil, deciduous grass & heather). I have such a low winter carrying capacity & getting heads in for the summer has proved more than difficult. Irish grants/regs work so much against any type of custom/contract grazing. Hopefully this method allows a low amount of stock to maintain as much habitat as possible. (for which I get paid)

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Got around to this video a few days ago, really interesting. I think the grazing naturally approach might really work in my context. (Hill, Peat soil, deciduous grass & heather). I have such a low winter carrying capacity & getting heads in for the summer has proved more than difficult. Irish grants/regs work so much against any type of custom/contract grazing. Hopefully this method allows a low amount of stock to maintain as much habitat as possible. (for which I get paid)

Good, glad you got on with it.
Alot of people find this type of "hang on a minute, mate" thinking to be problematic and it gives them trouble

but finding "a recipe that works everytime, everywhere" is also problematic, it's why this new wave of "regen" farmers have mulchers and drills and God knows what else they want.

The "why" is often that they just want to be like everyone else... why not just appreciate the life you bought with your land and "manage that", stop making excuses and do it. Stop making work and do it better

 

[crashbox]

Okay might be a silly question, or already answered previously, but what are your techniques for reseeding permanent pasture?

Does anyone here plough?

So far my thoughts are you could poss. Drill in a break crop (e.g. brassica), graze off, then back to grass reseed. Thoughts?

Reason for reseeding is to move from unproductive ryegrass leys, to more to diverse deep rooters e.g. herbals (which struggle to establish with no cultivations IME).

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Okay might be a silly question, or already answered previously, but what are your techniques for reseeding permanent pasture?

Does anyone here plough?

So far my thoughts are you could poss. Drill in a break crop (e.g. brassica), graze off, then back to grass reseed. Thoughts?

Reason for reseeding is to move from unproductive ryegrass leys, to more to diverse deep rooters e.g. herbals (which struggle to establish with no cultivations IME).

I would, but I'd use that short-term ley mix as a nurse crop for the persistent perennials.

It's not that herbicides or cultivations are "end of the world", but the frequency.
Every few decades is time to recover, every few months is not

Same as any impact or assault on the biome, eg you couldn't continually use a million kilos of beef per ha but a couple of times a year brings about good changes; this depends what you're working with of course.

[Was just having a discussion this morning with "a cantankerous mate of mine" who commented on the new wave of regen farmers posing beside their sunflower/phacelia crops.... wondering what they can do in a couple of months that cali thistles can't do in many years, and keep doing... for little cost or impact ]

In that, yes trying to change has to be good, but it's still replacing like with like - look really closely at the grasses you're going to use in your deep-rooting mix!
I would probably go for fescues and cocksfoot and save $$$ on the expensive short-term stuff, in short don't discount ANY tools in the box.
Use a deep ripper and then plough if that's the best course of action, pick your time (ie not in the snow!!!) and JFDI.

Also be mindful that every £ you spend is likely going to need to be recouped from producing something to sell, this is where our bracketed conversation ended up, it's still costly inputs vs cheap outputs, is it worth doing more of the same?

 

[som farmer]

we have 'gone off' ploughing, we use a rigid tine, ploughing inverts the soil, killing off worms, bugs and fungii, which you need to improve soil, that's not to say never plough, it's a tool in toolbox. A break crop is a good thing to do, just as round-up is a marvellous cleanser, these are tools to be used if necessary. We have found tine, shallow p/h and drill, to be very effective, establishing grass or brassicas, but fully admit round-up is very effective, I think if you are going to do a 'reset' you should use all tools available, and do it right. The other side of the coin, by controlled grazing, you can improve swards, we have been 'experimenting', one thin soiled, unworkable field, by very tight grazing, and backfence, has seriously increased quality, and quantity. I don't think there is a 'right' method, if you have a problem field, that needs serious attention, do it correctly, with all the tools available, and once done, move on to a managed system from then, we all have to make our farms pay, and i think we have concentrated on leaf production, and not enough on root structure, yet a plant with a good root structure, will produce more, withstand droughts, and last longer, quite obvious really, we just focussed on leaf, and forgot the roots.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I prefer cultivation to chemical, probably because I can actually "see the damage I've done" as opposed to pretending tipping cans into a sprayer doesn't cause harm.... again it's "frequency"

This helps me remember that "this time is the last time that I will" wilfully do that scale of damage... ((again, "frequency"))

it's really quite difficult to achieve any semblance of sustainability if we rely on short term or annual plants to run our farming businesses, I think @Henarar nailed that one right at the start of the thread.

It's all so energy-hungry, and for what?
Who absorbs that cost, some silly f...er

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Are you changing the management of the grazing/ cutting? If not then what's the point in a reseed anyway as you'll continue selecting for what's there now.

Reseeding is a balance between damage done and time "saved". Only you can judge that balance as its your context that applies.

 

[Henarar]

I prefer cultivation to chemical, probably because I can actually "see the damage I've done" as opposed to pretending tipping cans into a sprayer doesn't cause harm.... again it's "frequency"

This helps me remember that "this time is the last time that I will" wilfully do that scale of damage... ((again, "frequency"))

it's really quite difficult to achieve any semblance of sustainability if we rely on short term or annual plants to run our farming businesses, I think @Henarar nailed that one right at the start of the thread.

It's all so energy-hungry, and for what?
Who absorbs that cost, some silly f...er

I worry about losing what I have, anything that you can buy in a bag you can get back but I don't think they do a mix to match what has been sorting itself out for 50 or 100 years, that said I will still plough on occasion when there is not another way to fix a problem, just don't spray what was there and it will come back and take over from whatever you put in if that is what best grows with the management I do, if what I put in is better suited it will prevail

 

[Rob Garrett]

Okay might be a silly question, or already answered previously, but what are your techniques for reseeding permanent pasture?

Does anyone here plough?

So far my thoughts are you could poss. Drill in a break crop (e.g. brassica), graze off, then back to grass reseed. Thoughts?

Reason for reseeding is to move from unproductive ryegrass leys, to more to diverse deep rooters e.g. herbals (which struggle to establish with no cultivations IME).

Try resting it & see what appears. First pic. was a field up for reseed, ONLY EVER grows that 2" than seedhead grass, never any clover! Rested a couple of months &:

 

[crashbox]

Are you changing the management of the grazing/ cutting? If not then what's the point in a reseed anyway as you'll continue selecting for what's there now.

Reseeding is a balance between damage done and time "saved". Only you can judge that balance as its your context that applies.

Yes fairy point, moving to a more managed grazing system (i.e. fresh breaks every day), key objective of the reseed is to introduce new species which are drought tolerant and will help build soil (Cocksfoot, Chicory, Plantain, legumes)

 

[crashbox]

we have 'gone off' ploughing, we use a rigid tine, ploughing inverts the soil, killing off worms, bugs and fungii, which you need to improve soil, that's not to say never plough, it's a tool in toolbox. A break crop is a good thing to do, just as round-up is a marvellous cleanser, these are tools to be used if necessary. We have found tine, shallow p/h and drill, to be very effective, establishing grass or brassicas, but fully admit round-up is very effective, I think if you are going to do a 'reset' you should use all tools available, and do it right. The other side of the coin, by controlled grazing, you can improve swards, we have been 'experimenting', one thin soiled, unworkable field, by very tight grazing, and backfence, has seriously increased quality, and quantity. I don't think there is a 'right' method, if you have a problem field, that needs serious attention, do it correctly, with all the tools available, and once done, move on to a managed system from then, we all have to make our farms pay, and i think we have concentrated on leaf production, and not enough on root structure, yet a plant with a good root structure, will produce more, withstand droughts, and last longer, quite obvious really, we just focussed on leaf, and forgot the roots.

Rigid tine sounds great... But how do you get on without inverting FYM? Leave it until well composted, and then not spread on the surface?

My main break crop due to dry conditions is maize (yes I know I'll be ripped apart on this forum!) but still trying to figure out how to establish it in grassland without tearing up the soil structure...

 

[crashbox]

I would, but I'd use that short-term ley mix as a nurse crop for the persistent perennials.

What would you use for the nurse crop, Pete... Westerwolds? Or Barley?

I guess the idea is the perennial grasses and legumes tiller out over time and fill in the voids left by the short term species?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I like oats; better than most things as a soil conditioner and even feed oats can be used, because you're not drilling a crop, but feeding the soil
It'll also provide a heap of good mulch/litter, where westerwolds or IRG takes a while to do that and tends to be more "smothery" even at a light rate.

What you want to establish are all fairly quick out of the ground, all the same

Interesting re the inversion vs non inversion tillage, our "weediest" paddocks to most folk (grass species that people seem to dislike) are all the ploughed ones, then the previous guy shifted to just scratching them up and didn't put so much of that seed at the surface

 

[som farmer]

some information i would like to know, how long a grass plant would live for. Experts are very quick to tell us when to re-seed, because x% of sown grass, has gone, and the ley is 'unproductive', so needs renewing, fair enough. What nobody says, is why it's become unproductive, bad management is obvious, weather as well, after those, is it because the grass itself dies off, after x amount of time, or becomes weaker as it ages. Perm/p by it's name is long lasting, so why does it last so long ? Is it because the grasses present are longer livers, or are capable of reseeding themselves, where as 'better/sown' grasses cannot, or are they only designed to live for a few years only, perhaps the seeds themselves are of very low germination, that then suggests that we could be idiots by sowing at the recommended rates, we have upped seed rates, 18kg is our 'norm' now, same with plenty of our friends, and yet 30 yrs ago, 10-14 kg was the rate. Reseeding is an expensive pastime, and anyway of increasing the duration of leys, has got to be good, but quality has to be there, as well. Experts are very good at telling us, when to reseed, after all, their wages are paid by us, the more they sell, the more they get. Coming back to p/p, makes wonderful hay, but indifferent silage, is this because we simply don't cut it early enough, because there doesn't look much there ? or because the grass is crap, in terms of nutrition. Like i have said before, we are improving some p/p by grazing management, cattle do well on it, so feed value must be there. I don't know the answers, but going forward, variety, type of grass, herbs and clover, will be looked at very seriously, and perhaps a high % of perennial rye grass, is not the b-all and end-all of a pasture.

 

[som farmer]

Rigid tine sounds great... But how do you get on without inverting FYM? Leave it until well composted, and then not spread on the surface?

My main break crop due to dry conditions is maize (yes I know I'll be ripped apart on this forum!) but still trying to figure out how to establish it in grassland without tearing up the soil structure...

we grow maize, hate the stuff, all done wrong end of year, but the cows love it. I don't think it has a long term future, it is grown in places/fields, that cause problems with run off, soil movement, and mud on roads. Tine and p/h work very well, to plant maize. We have a slurry lagoon, so most of sh1t is pumped, or tankered out, do a few strategic passes with the tines, to stop any run off, that is if we are going to crop that field, otherwise on top of grass. Fym we tend to heap up, and rot down then spread, soon disappears. Our ground is very prone to panning, so using tines serves a double purpose, and we can alter depth easily, 18 ins down, if we need to, but the ground is changing, moles are moving back in, (bad) and when working soil, are now getting masses of seagulls again, both telling us more bugs are present, and getting a few mushrooms in places they haven't been seen for years, so something is different. The best thing about this thread, or regen, is that you start to look at things from a different angle, and by managing growth above ground, you can improve what's below ground, one thing notable here, leaving longer residuals behind the cows, led to more grass being produced, but it's pretty simple, better root structure, means better soil, which leaves you with a plant able to produce more.

 

[Henarar]

Coming back to p/p, makes wonderful hay, but indifferent silage, is this because we simply don't cut it early enough, because there doesn't look much there ? or because the grass is crap, in terms of nutrition. Like i have said before, we are improving some p/p by grazing management, cattle do well on it, so feed value must be there. I don't know the answers, but going forward, variety, type of grass, herbs and clover, will be looked at very seriously, and perhaps a high % of perennial rye grass, is not the b-all and end-all of a pasture.

We make bale silage from our PP it may not be good enough for dairy cows [though we use to feed ours on it] but most of our suckler cows are to fat and the calves do well on it I think they do just as well in the winter as the summer.
We cut it quite early usually mid may onwards, we do it ourselves so it takes a while when we get the weather doing a few fields at a time, I am not bothered with getting vast amounts as long as we average about 7 bales per acre that is good enough for me, sometimes when we start its only doing 5 to the acre.
any that gets to old and some of our flower medow type stuff is best made to hay is best made to hay

when we used to do a lot of contract bailing we would start here as early as anywhere else and do a few fields for different customers as we went along some of the customers grass would be rye grass and while it looked like there was far more there before it was cut time it came to bailing it there wasn't much difference, the rye grass was much taller but not as thick.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Because it grows slower (up for debate) it's got much higher lipid content than the sugar grasses can. Hence fat cattle get fatter on it

 

[crashbox]

We make bale silage from our PP it may not be good enough for dairy cows [though we use to feed ours on it] but most of our suckler cows are to fat and the calves do well on it I think they do just as well in the winter as the summer.
We cut it quite early usually mid may onwards, we do it ourselves so it takes a while when we get the weather doing a few fields at a time, I am not bothered with getting vast amounts as long as we average about 7 bales per acre that is good enough for me, sometimes when we start its only doing 5 to the acre.
any that gets to old and some of our flower medow type stuff is best made to hay is best made to hay

when we used to do a lot of contract bailing we would start here as early as anywhere else and do a few fields for different customers as we went along some of the customers grass would be rye grass and while it looked like there was far more there before it was cut time it came to bailing it there wasn't much difference, the rye grass was much taller but not as thick.

Yep no doubt PP has the feed value, some spring calving dairy cows I've heard of doing 30 litres of pasture diet with parlour bait at peak.
I'm not convinced by the Italian and Westerwolds silage swards that I've sown recently.
They are so thin and open, in an area that is water stressed there is too much bare ground for weeds to move in seriously rapidly, and the exposed dirt doesn't hold the little rain that falls.
I'll be lucky to get 5 bales a cut, last year did a graze (to help tiller out) - 1st cut - 2nd cut, got 6 bales in 2 cuts. On the website the variety was supposed to be good for 16+ tonnes DM/ha.
You can imagine what I think of that.

 

[crashbox]

So next question, what's a good regen/sustainable silage mix, for winter feed?