"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[som farmer]

We make bale silage from our PP it may not be good enough for dairy cows [though we use to feed ours on it] but most of our suckler cows are to fat and the calves do well on it I think they do just as well in the winter as the summer.
We cut it quite early usually mid may onwards, we do it ourselves so it takes a while when we get the weather doing a few fields at a time, I am not bothered with getting vast amounts as long as we average about 7 bales per acre that is good enough for me, sometimes when we start its only doing 5 to the acre.
any that gets to old and some of our flower medow type stuff is best made to hay is best made to hay

when we used to do a lot of contract bailing we would start here as early as anywhere else and do a few fields for different customers as we went along some of the customers grass would be rye grass and while it looked like there was far more there before it was cut time it came to bailing it there wasn't much difference, the rye grass was much taller but not as thick.

thinking some/all the quality issues in p/p silage, could well be us not cutting it earlier, as in not enough there, and usually end up suprised how much there actually is there. The 'modern' teaching for silage, is multicut, taking grass earlier, to get quality, and some say higher end yield. p/p is usually much denser than a prg ley, so yield wise, perhaps not to different, quality, you can certainly make rocket fuel, from leys, a lot of which goes straight through, and therefore they eat it quicker, so, is that gain in super quality that good, especially if you need to add straw, to give some roughage, to slow it down. Dairy farming is dividing, one way is high imput/output, the other is low cost, the ones between, will just carry on, as before, and be fine, if no labour. Sweeping statement, love to be contentious.
But with the low cost herds, do our cows need rocket fuel, probably not, but they do need quality, and perhaps older grass leys, or p/p, with a diverse selection of grasses, herbs and clover, are not so far off.

 

[Henarar]

thinking some/all the quality issues in p/p silage, could well be us not cutting it earlier, as in not enough there, and usually end up suprised how much there actually is there. The 'modern' teaching for silage, is multicut, taking grass earlier, to get quality, and some say higher end yield. p/p is usually much denser than a prg ley, so yield wise, perhaps not to different, quality, you can certainly make rocket fuel, from leys, a lot of which goes straight through, and therefore they eat it quicker, so, is that gain in super quality that good, especially if you need to add straw, to give some roughage, to slow it down. Dairy farming is dividing, one way is high imput/output, the other is low cost, the ones between, will just carry on, as before, and be fine, if no labour. Sweeping statement, love to be contentious.
But with the low cost herds, do our cows need rocket fuel, probably not, but they do need quality, and perhaps older grass leys, or p/p, with a diverse selection of grasses, herbs and clover, are not so far off.

I wouldn't think that lower input cows need rocket fuel and if you have to add straw well isn't straw more expensive than silage.
you have to compare like with like as you say PP that isn't cut till late isn't much good for silage but I once bought some over stood rye grass bales and the cows didn't like it

 

[Henarar]

I was thinking about all this today and I think we got where we are today on our farm with our old PP because Dad didn't have time to farm "properly" [and I don't mean that as an insult] reseeding just didn't get done much so we made do with what we had and I carried on with it.
Not that I think we are doing it all right there are lots of improvements that could be made but one thing this thread has told me is that we are not doing everything wrong

 

[crashbox]

Just realised I should probably apologise, the title of the thread is planned holistic GRAZING, not SILAGE MAKING!!

So next question, what's a good regen/sustainable silage mix, for winter feed?

Just realised I should probably retract the question, the title of the thread is planned holistic GRAZING, not SILAGE MAKING!!

 

[som farmer]

I wouldn't think that lower input cows need rocket fuel and if you have to add straw well isn't straw more expensive than silage.
you have to compare like with like as you say PP that isn't cut till late isn't much good for silage but I once bought some over stood rye grass bales and the cows didn't like it

we grew a high sugar ley, once, even gave the hols acute acid overload. You are dead right on the p/p silage, what is the point of making rocket fuel, and scraping the residue up afterwards, so somewhere between the two, should be spot on, but as always, weather can mess you up. If we can improve p/p by grazing management, and you can cut p/p or older leys, much tighter than new leys, then if followed with say a 5/6 week rest, there could be a substantial cost saving to be had. It is an interesting question to debate though. @crashbox , asking about suitable mixes for silage , a large selection of drought resistant grasses, herbs and clover, it would be nice to have the luxury of time, to actually try and improve the natural grasses that grow, but the first ones would be annual meadow grass, which doesn't yield, it would be good to see what p/p would do, now with a large toolbox of sprays fert etc, to manipulate it
Because of our dry out summers, we have been growing hybrid rye, yielding at 17/18 tons acre, and sowing maize in behind it, for another 15 t/ac. This year we have sown vetch with it, to try and increase protien level.
We are happy to graze standing 'hay' with dry/young stock, they seem to like it.

 

[awkward]

We were growing 4 cuts a year plus maybe 3 grazing off of our silage ground 30 years ago, rocket fuel probably, rocket through the pit no problem but with all the problems associated , now it two cuts of well grown ,headed with a little stem to firm the dung and stock are much more content and healthy , we forget they must ruminate and fiber stimulates this deriving heath and better digestion, however we don't winter milk but I would grow the same if I was reguardless

 

[Kiwi Pete]

So next question, what's a good regen/sustainable silage mix, for winter feed?

How sustainable are you talking?

this would outlast most silage choppers

it probably comes down to where you are on the "scale of permanence", for us the answer is deciduous legume shrubs and permanent pasture.. requires only enough input to balance the output, and we're looking at 22-24 TDM/ha per year.
Certainly most things that go through a seeddrill can be as good a feed, few will be as permanent or as cheap on a year-by-year basis

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

How sustainable are you talking?View attachment 942789
this would outlast most silage choppers

it probably comes down to where you are on the "scale of permanence", for us the answer is deciduous legume shrubs and permanent pasture.. requires only enough input to balance the output, and we're looking at 22-24 TDM/ha per year.
Certainly most things that go through a seeddrill can be as good a feed, few will be as permanent or as cheap on a year-by-year basis

You'll have any seed merchants reading this contemplating suicide at this rate Pete!

 

[som farmer]

How sustainable are you talking?View attachment 942789
this would outlast most silage choppers

it probably comes down to where you are on the "scale of permanence", for us the answer is deciduous legume shrubs and permanent pasture.. requires only enough input to balance the output, and we're looking at 22-24 TDM/ha per year.
Certainly most things that go through a seeddrill can be as good a feed, few will be as permanent or as cheap on a year-by-year basis

not to sure cows would milk off that though.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I doubt that, selling stuff to farmers is the easiest job in the whole world.

They got great mileage out of selling them ryegrass that they didn't really need, now there must be 50 years of selling "erbal ley mixes" that aren't going to achieve much more (under conventional management regimes) than the ryegrass did.

Hey ho.

It all goes down the toilet and out to sea, may as well spend the money instead of paying tax

 

[Kiwi Pete]

not to sure cows would milk off that though.

Better cows or lower expectations, either works.

Some big beefies hiding up there and their calves
weren't dying of hunger.... sometimes we expect the impossible from our landscapes

 

[Henarar]

I doubt that, selling stuff to farmers is the easiest job in the whole world.

They got great mileage out of selling them ryegrass that they didn't really need, now there must be 50 years of selling "erbal ley mixes" that aren't going to achieve much more (under conventional management regimes) than the ryegrass did.

Hey ho.

It all goes down the toilet and out to sea, may as well spend the money instead of paying tax

charming

 

[Kiwi Pete]

charming

Hope it didn't put you off yer grub

 

[som farmer]

We were growing 4 cuts a year plus maybe 3 grazing off of our silage ground 30 years ago, rocket fuel probably, rocket through the pit no problem but with all the problems associated , now it two cuts of well grown ,headed with a little stem to firm the dung and stock are much more content and healthy , we forget they must ruminate and fiber stimulates this deriving heath and better digestion, however we don't winter milk but I would grow the same if I was reguardless

and 30 yrs ago, it was silage and cake in parlour, no doubt. 1980's were when the hols were really kicking in, breeding up from fr's, and if we were to look back, probably the start of the feeder wagon, and TMR, looking back now, with hindsight, what idiots we were, breeding cows capable of massive yields, needing carefully planned expensive rations, then spending £1000's on a bit kit, diet feeder, to put it in front of our weaker cows, in the 'correct' way, in the time of scarily high cost of milk quota, which was designed to reduce milk production. The cost to dairy farmers of quota, crippled the industry, instead of investing in modernising, pension pots of holidays, £millions went from dairy to other types of farming, or, football clubs.
So, fast forward to now, trying to go back to those low cost fr type cows, that don't need 'special' treatment, or electric blankets, to thrive, easy simple rations again, even self feed silage, producing b&w bull calves that will sell, and no massive machinery to deliver the ration. Hindsight isn't always a good thing to have.
But what we can see from the above, is that we over complicated our lives, and spent large amounts of money, on a system that was unsustainable, and stopped (quota). And now, 'improving our lot', is coming to the forefront again, and nice simple systems, looking after our greatest asset, soil, will look after our pockets as well. Full circle.

 

[som farmer]

Better cows or lower expectations, either works.

Some big beefies hiding up there and their calves
weren't dying of hunger.... sometimes we expect the impossible from our landscapes

our landscape is great, can see for miles, it just hates dry weather and wind, then it gives you a two fingered salute.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Our neighbour has his dairy herd on that yellow-brown "stuff" on the hill behind our mob.

feeding out ropey baleage (bought from the neighbour on the other side of us) when I took the stock agent around this morning...

that's what non-selective rotational grazing seems to do down here, goes good in the spring and hits the wall once the grass has done its "spring thing"

"untoward acceleration" in other words, now he's stuck on a 22-24 day round for the rest of the year and spending $$$$ to feed cows stocked at 2.1/ha, neglecting the youngstock because "milk pays the bills"

I'm concerned that it could be us in that predicament, you know, hitting that wall where you got the back-pats for "wasting grass like Jim Gerrish/Greg Judy" and then degrading and dehydrating the land for the other half of the growing season because you wasted grass and thus wasted recovery time

I don't chase quality or quantity but "plenty of time between grazings" these days, seems to work out a lot better.

 

[Henarar]

and 30 yrs ago, it was silage and cake in parlour, no doubt. 1980's were when the hols were really kicking in, breeding up from fr's, and if we were to look back, probably the start of the feeder wagon, and TMR, looking back now, with hindsight, what idiots we were, breeding cows capable of massive yields, needing carefully planned expensive rations, then spending £1000's on a bit kit, diet feeder, to put it in front of our weaker cows, in the 'correct' way, in the time of scarily high cost of milk quota, which was designed to reduce milk production. The cost to dairy farmers of quota, crippled the industry, instead of investing in modernising, pension pots of holidays, £millions went from dairy to other types of farming, or, football clubs.
So, fast forward to now, trying to go back to those low cost fr type cows, that don't need 'special' treatment, or electric blankets, to thrive, easy simple rations again, even self feed silage, producing b&w bull calves that will sell, and no massive machinery to deliver the ration. Hindsight isn't always a good thing to have.
But what we can see from the above, is that we over complicated our lives, and spent large amounts of money, on a system that was unsustainable, and stopped (quota). And now, 'improving our lot', is coming to the forefront again, and nice simple systems, looking after our greatest asset, soil, will look after our pockets as well. Full circle.

Dad tried a few hols and soon came to the conclusion that they were no good on our land and simple system, the trouble was at that time you could hardly find a BF AI bull to use, there was often just one lurking at the back of the bull catalogue

 

[Kiwi Pete]

our landscape is great, can see for miles, it just hates dry weather and wind, then it gives you a two fingered salute.

How does she do in "an Indian summer"?
Assume that isn't just a local phrase..., but a summer where it rains on time?

I see a lot of concern when we get dry summers here but you have to be prepared for all extremes, not just the dry one in 10 or the "heatwave" year

I think it was about this time last year we got 200mm+ in half a week and then another 100mm and another.

My concern is that if you focus too much on "deep roots" but can't get that water down there really quickly, then there could be better results from "diversity of root structures and depths"

as per Dick Richardson's looong video, don't manage too much for one thing, manage for the whole thing

 

[som farmer]

Our neighbour has his dairy herd on that yellow-brown "stuff" on the hill behind our mob.View attachment 942817 feeding out ropey baleage (bought from the neighbour on the other side of us) when I took the stock agent around this morning...

that's what non-selective rotational grazing seems to do down here, goes good in the spring and hits the wall once the grass has done its "spring thing"

"untoward acceleration" in other words, now he's stuck on a 22-24 day round for the rest of the year and spending $$$$ to feed cows stocked at 2.1/ha, neglecting the youngstock because "milk pays the bills"View attachment 942818

I'm concerned that it could be us in that predicament, you know, hitting that wall where you got the back-pats for "wasting grass like Jim Gerrish/Greg Judy" and then degrading and dehydrating the land for the other half of the growing season because you wasted grass and thus wasted recovery time

I don't chase quality or quantity but "plenty of time between grazings" these days, seems to work out a lot better.

judy does a marvellous job, no doubt about that, but he has a big advantage, cheap land. We don't have that here, so we have an 'extra' problem to cope with. Given good conditions, we can grow grass, in huge quantity, in these drier summers, we are screwed, wind turned the grass tips blue two weeks ago, so we put sheep on, they go today, and the last 17 acres they were in, is growing faster than they could eat it, 375 ewes will have been here 3 weeks, where they were prior to that field, you wouldn't know they'd been there.
This is why i have become really into this topic, for us, we have to grow grass that is capable of living in the adverse times, as you say, grass production early summer onwards, can be really 'iffy', or simply unreliable. I am a great believer in the spade, dig a hole and see what's underground, shallow roots. We need to get grass that will send down roots, to get moisture, modern grasses just don't do it. This thread has opened up a multitude of ideas, to many really, and i can clearly see where we went wrong, and how to return, time passes to quickly, and it cant happen all at once, but we will get there, the stupidest thing about regen, is it doesn't really cost anything, and gives a good payback, and that is probably why many farmers 'distrust' it, in farming, you rarely get something for nothing.

 

[Woolless]

and 30 yrs ago, it was silage and cake in parlour, no doubt. 1980's were when the hols were really kicking in, breeding up from fr's, and if we were to look back, probably the start of the feeder wagon, and TMR, looking back now, with hindsight, what idiots we were, breeding cows capable of massive yields, needing carefully planned expensive rations, then spending £1000's on a bit kit, diet feeder, to put it in front of our weaker cows, in the 'correct' way, in the time of scarily high cost of milk quota, which was designed to reduce milk production. The cost to dairy farmers of quota, crippled the industry, instead of investing in modernising, pension pots of holidays, £millions went from dairy to other types of farming, or, football clubs.
So, fast forward to now, trying to go back to those low cost fr type cows, that don't need 'special' treatment, or electric blankets, to thrive, easy simple rations again, even self feed silage, producing b&w bull calves that will sell, and no massive machinery to deliver the ration. Hindsight isn't always a good thing to have.
But what we can see from the above, is that we over complicated our lives, and spent large amounts of money, on a system that was unsustainable, and stopped (quota). And now, 'improving our lot', is coming to the forefront again, and nice simple systems, looking after our greatest asset, soil, will look after our pockets as well. Full circle.

I worked as a vet in a cull plant in the mid 2000s and you could see the result of this breeding coming in. Young cows like hat racks going up the line due to breeding for production and neglecting everything else. Meanwhile, we were told that dairy farms were losing money due to low milk price. I couldn't understand it. A more robust cow that lasted longer, had a decent bull calf and was worth more herself at the end of the day made much more sense to me.