"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Poorbuthappy]

there is a group of 'nearly sensible' people that would argue that we are not the first civilisation to inhabit this planet, and would give evidence to 'prove' that, including a place where it would appear a nuclear explosion occurred.
The mayans said the world would finish 2 yrs ago, or thereabouts. Whether right or wrong, there are plenty of things from 1000's years back, they cannot explain.
Today, we are told the world is being 'killed' by us humans, or the main cause, intensive agriculture., the connection between intensive ag, and population survival, doesn't seem to have been made/realised.
So following on from John Galway's point, why should we bother to try and help to save the world, if it's going to collapse anyway. That is easy, it may not. But mankind is having a serious attempt to kill us all off, and we know that life will have to change, to survive, and to survive, farming has to be a central point, as it holds the answers, from food supply, to carbon absorption. It's a sobering thought that so much is dependant on us, but mainstream think we are a major cause of it's demise. So where does that leave us, how/when will that penny drop. Regen ag is a theme that is growing, but so is the clearing of rain forests, desertification, and intensive farming, the latter is, abroad, heavily dependant on modern drugs. A nice lady locally, tells us her son in law, is being paid to break 1,000's of acres of virgin ground in africa, fine if 'properly' farmed, or not.
One could go on and on, with examples of what is wrong, but we need clear answers/guides as to how guv's want us to produce food, is it better to intensify farming in 'civilised' countries, where we have the know how to do it, or do we source our food from countries, that don't give a toss about environment. It's fine us few doing our 'bit' but it's a drop in the ocean, compared to what's needed.
A bit of deep physiology, for the first day of spring, looks great outside, but am mindful of the saying, march, in like a lion, out like a lamb. I did remember the whole saying, half your corn, and half your hay, on candlemass day, which was 2nd feb, so on one side, spring, the other middle of winter, no wonder we get confused ! The grazing season is just round the corner, and i hope it's going to be a good one.

Its suggested the Mayans were not predicting the end of the world, simply the end of a cycle, and a new beginning . We view time as linear, they view it as cyclical. As such one commentator suggested we are always looking for endings, whereas the Mayans were looking for new beginnings.

However I suspect we aren't really looking for endings, nobody wants things to end, and would rather bury their heads in the sand and pretend it'll all go on forever.

 

[Henarar]

I don't think "life" will stop, life has always adapted to suit its environs.

Human life will struggle, because we tend toward forcing the environs to change to suit us

"The meek shall inherit the Earth"

It's never been a nutrient shortage, only farmers buy that story, because of the scarcity mentality that drives them - ask yourself, why do countries with the highest number of consumers per sq mile throw their farmers the most bones?
Yes, those consumers pay taxes, but the illusion is necessary to keep that fear of "not enough" in the minds of all.

Will money-throwing be the solution to the problem that money brought about in the first place?

Life will stop on earth and the nutrients will be burned away by the sun till it goes bang.
Still plenty of time for us to feck it up before then

 

[Kiwi Pete]

If argue that, while the invention of agriculture was an ecologically bad move, the invention of money was the worst human crime. It removed the link between cause and effect in most human motivations.

Agreed. It took the emphasis off conservation, which in the end will see our downfall.

there is a group of 'nearly sensible' people that would argue that we are not the first civilisation to inhabit this planet, and would give evidence to 'prove' that, including a place where it would appear a nuclear explosion occurred.
The mayans said the world would finish 2 yrs ago, or thereabouts. Whether right or wrong, there are plenty of things from 1000's years back, they cannot explain.
Today, we are told the world is being 'killed' by us humans, or the main cause, intensive agriculture., the connection between intensive ag, and population survival, doesn't seem to have been made/realised.
So following on from John Galway's point, why should we bother to try and help to save the world, if it's going to collapse anyway. That is easy, it may not. But mankind is having a serious attempt to kill us all off, and we know that life will have to change, to survive, and to survive, farming has to be a central point, as it holds the answers, from food supply, to carbon absorption. It's a sobering thought that so much is dependant on us, but mainstream think we are a major cause of it's demise. So where does that leave us, how/when will that penny drop. Regen ag is a theme that is growing, but so is the clearing of rain forests, desertification, and intensive farming, the latter is, abroad, heavily dependant on modern drugs. A nice lady locally, tells us her son in law, is being paid to break 1,000's of acres of virgin ground in africa, fine if 'properly' farmed, or not.
One could go on and on, with examples of what is wrong, but we need clear answers/guides as to how guv's want us to produce food, is it better to intensify farming in 'civilised' countries, where we have the know how to do it, or do we source our food from countries, that don't give a toss about environment. It's fine us few doing our 'bit' but it's a drop in the ocean, compared to what's needed.
A bit of deep physiology, for the first day of spring, looks great outside, but am mindful of the saying, march, in like a lion, out like a lamb. I did remember the whole saying, half your corn, and half your hay, on candlemass day, which was 2nd feb, so on one side, spring, the other middle of winter, no wonder we get confused ! The grazing season is just round the corner, and i hope it's going to be a good one.

You do know what the Amazon is, eh?

It was our gift, our "drought reserve" from people long since gone, a food forest mainly.
However, they had a problem... they got a little too good at improving soil's capacity to grow food, so good that they could stop moving around the forest and could settle and do more crop growing.
More food, less walking = more babies
When the white man arrived with "new" diseases, they were gone in a matter of years. The "rainforest" is growing out of what was once their villages and cities.

Hence the Mayans' knowledge the cycle would repeat and repeat, humans with our big brains don't know when enough is enough.

Most farmers won't see the wood for the trees that "permaculture" is a far greater thing to pass down than an agriculture, agriculture is now built on the lie that "a bit more is nearly enough"

Sure, we can be "extractive" permaculturalists if we try hard enough, but taking 10kg of nuts from a 10 tonne mineral pump that we call "an almond tree" or "a walnut tree" is going to keep going under a zero-input regime a lot longer than taking 10 tonnes of grain off 12 tonnes of plants.

Hence the fallacy that "we need agriculture to feed us" and more especially "we need large scale farms to supply the bulk of it", this belief is not the reality.
It's the illusion of "never enough", and the entitlement to sit on our ass and be fat and happy and never die

What we need, is a short sharp shock - agriculture arrived about ten to midnight and threw petrol on the bonfire.

However, for now a lot of humanity depends on disposable cows for their nice milky morning coffee or "they just aren't feeling it" thus one feeds one thousand.

I reckon one person should maybe feed 10 people or so, the other 990 can eat each other if they don't want to help save the soil

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

I reckon one person should maybe feed 10 people or so, the other 990 can eat each other if they don't want to help save the soil

OMFG, Who'd design and build iPhone 13?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

OMFG, Who'd design and build iPhone 13?

Already done

it's called a chopping block

 

[som farmer]

Do we really have a 'duty' to feed the ungrateful population ? It would seem to me, that we are a problem, and they would welcome our demise. Or we could only feed those that appreciate us, that would be discrimination !
However, we will keep producing, they will keep eating, and we will still be blamed, lets hope our shoulders are broad enough. It will be enough for me, to know i have tried to do my bit, to those ungrateful sods, but I'm not sure that we HAVE to.
As treg says, so much ground is abused by growing wrong crops, in the wrong place, or even for vanity, there is nothing 'wrong' with intensive farming, if done properly, and it will need to increase, as population grows. But the danger lies in unregulated countries, where the systems are abused, either by welfare or reliance on drugs. I tend to think we could 'manage' it here, vastly better than some other countries.
There is nothing we can do to change attitudes, mankind will have to get to a 'crisis' point, before anything other than 'minor' changes occur. Ag has been about for 1,000's years, and has produced enough food, to allow population to grow. It is only the last 100 years that have seen unbelievable changes, those changes are leading to a 'major' crisis point, and the world is happily sleep walking into it.

 

[awkward]

OMFG, Who'd design and build iPhone 13?

They've gone well beyond the 13, closer to 18

 

[ShooTa]

odd one - but for the filed with the ragwort - could a solution be to do a weed tea brew and spray on/ flame only the buggers when theyre in flower too..

 

[som farmer]

when we had sheep ourselves, they obliterated the ragwort, which in places was quite bad, they reckon it is poisonous to stock, I've seen many sheep expire, and never thought it was due to ragwort.

 

[JohnGalway]

I don't think "life" will stop, life has always adapted to suit its environs.

Human life will struggle, because we tend toward forcing the environs to change to suit us

"The meek shall inherit the Earth"

It's never been a nutrient shortage, only farmers buy that story, because of the scarcity mentality that drives them - ask yourself, why do countries with the highest number of consumers per sq mile throw their farmers the most bones?
Yes, those consumers pay taxes, but the illusion is necessary to keep that fear of "not enough" in the minds of all.

Will money-throwing be the solution to the problem that money brought about in the first place?

Whoa there ponies (in general )

Some clarifications necessary. What I was attempting to say (I'll blame the hour) is I have noticed in discussions when a particular practice is brought up, the answer is "but that's extractive". Ignoring that that practice is, in my view anyway, orders of magnitude better than current practice. Yes, it may still be extractive on a tiny scale, but that's to diminish it's positive value ie buying time for us 'Umans to do some more useful thinking.

On a parallel track I do happen to think none of us owes anyone squat. I don't feel I'm responsible for saving the world, I particularly don't feel I need to feed the world. The fact that we can assist in both of those while living our own lives and earning our own living I see as a byproduct of methods of farming we talk about in this thread and other places.

As for life, I believe humans have a limited span on this planet. Something, some event or disease or our own greed will do us in eventually. Life could be some microbes deep underground but that's not much use to us typing into this.

I don't believe the nutrient scarcity in how it's portrayed to farmers. But, everything ends, in time.

 

[Fenwick]

Everything we do has a impact so personally I do feel responsible for the damage being done to the planet, I think we all have a responsibility to do our bit.
Until everybody takes responsibility for their actions things won't change.

You won't be surprised to know that I agree with you on that one. It is one of the reasons I got into farming.

It's much easier to say I won't make a difference, and not bother. "It's not my problem". etc. "We're too small".

We should remeber that every decent movement that has ever happened has always started "small".

It comes down to area of concern and area of influence, and our area of influence as farmers is greater than many think.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

We have MASSIVE influence, more people are watching and learning and "looking at it differently" than we realise.
Certainly more than our 104 acres..... holism is much greater than a sum of its parts

 

[Yale]

They've gone well beyond the 13, closer to 18

Makes me feel better with my 5s which is a cast off from a neighbours 15 year old son who had moved on.

Doing my bit for reusing.

Problem is it’s conking now as I have that many photos it’s up to its meagre 16 megawhotsithingys.

 

[StormurShepherd]

David Montgomery's "The hidden half of nature" and Nicole Masters "For the love of soil" are both excellent for a keen person on the learning curve.

Thank you for the recommendations FTLOS has been on my wish list for a while and I've now added David's book too. I hadn't bought a book in so long and so was recently were shocked at the prices of some!

I've got ebooks of Joel Salatin's works as well to get through along with a few permaculture "bibles" I picked up before learning about Holistic Ag.

So far my wish list consists is below, but have no idea if they are "MUST READS" or not.

• The Art and Science of Grazing: How Grass Farmers Can Create Sustainable Systems for Healthy Animals and Farm Ecosystems - Sarah Flack
• MAN, CATTLE and VELD - Johann Zietsman
• A Soil Owner's Manual: How to Restore and Maintain Soil Health - Jon Stika
• Restoration Agriculture 1st edition by Mark Shepard (2013) Paperback - Mark Shepard
• Comeback Farms - Greg Judy
• The Lean Farm - Ben Hartman - I believe I saw that mentioned in some of the earlier pages in this thread.

I'm still making my way through this thread, so apologies if the has come up many pages before, probably the most useful farming thread I've seen in years.

 

[JohnGalway]

Thank you for the recommendations FTLOS has been on my wish list for a while and I've now added David's book too. I hadn't bought a book in so long and so was recently were shocked at the prices of some!

I've got ebooks of Joel Salatin's works as well to get through along with a few permaculture "bibles" I picked up before learning about Holistic Ag.

So far my wish list consists is below, but have no idea if they are "MUST READS" or not.

• The Art and Science of Grazing: How Grass Farmers Can Create Sustainable Systems for Healthy Animals and Farm Ecosystems - Sarah Flack
• MAN, CATTLE and VELD - Johann Zietsman
• A Soil Owner's Manual: How to Restore and Maintain Soil Health - Jon Stika
• Restoration Agriculture 1st edition by Mark Shepard (2013) Paperback - Mark Shepard
• Comeback Farms - Greg Judy
• The Lean Farm - Ben Hartman - I believe I saw that mentioned in some of the earlier pages in this thread.

I'm still making my way through this thread, so apologies if the has come up many pages before, probably the most useful farming thread I've seen in years.

Man, Cattle, and Veld tops that list, then The Art & Science of Grazing. I own Stikas book but, time. No idea about Shepards book. Don't think I have any Greg Judy books at the moment but there was significant info from his earlier YT videos. Started but never finished the Lean Farm. FTLOS fits in probably first or second in your list. IMO.

 

[Fenwick]

Man, Cattle, and Veld tops that list, then The Art & Science of Grazing. I own Stikas book but, time. No idea about Shepards book. Don't think I have any Greg Judy books at the moment but there was significant info from his earlier YT videos. Started but never finished the Lean Farm. FTLOS fits in probably first or second in your list. IMO.

Love Marc shepards book! Love this vision of agriculture.
Would like to know more about the economic of it, I fear it may be a little too utopian?

Just recieved man cattle and Veld. I hope the content is good, beauce the photos and text formatting are diabolical!

@newbie_farmer Grass productivty by Voisin would be a good first book to read.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Thank you for the recommendations FTLOS has been on my wish list for a while and I've now added David's book too. I hadn't bought a book in so long and so was recently were shocked at the prices of some!

I've got ebooks of Joel Salatin's works as well to get through along with a few permaculture "bibles" I picked up before learning about Holistic Ag.

So far my wish list consists is below, but have no idea if they are "MUST READS" or not.

• The Art and Science of Grazing: How Grass Farmers Can Create Sustainable Systems for Healthy Animals and Farm Ecosystems - Sarah Flack
• MAN, CATTLE and VELD - Johann Zietsman
• A Soil Owner's Manual: How to Restore and Maintain Soil Health - Jon Stika
• Restoration Agriculture 1st edition by Mark Shepard (2013) Paperback - Mark Shepard
• Comeback Farms - Greg Judy
• The Lean Farm - Ben Hartman - I believe I saw that mentioned in some of the earlier pages in this thread.

I'm still making my way through this thread, so apologies if the has come up many pages before, probably the most useful farming thread I've seen in years.

Not a bad book list I've read none of those, but

I'd recommend "The secret life of plants" and "The secret life of soil" (Peter Tompkins off the top of my head?) and "For the love of soil" by Nicole Masters

The Secret life of plants is a little bit 'out there' in places but helps you see the value of not hurting and killing anything that stands in the way of feeding the world and Nicole is just Nicole

 

[ShooTa]

agreed good list,

man,cattle veld is on my wish list.
lean farm too but im fairly read up on the toyota method of lean business - fascinating stuff.
and mark shephards book is on the horizon too as it ticks my forester kick.

ive made my way through most of joels books but field of farmers is one im thinking of getting - pigness of pigs i did not get on with.

other ones that can be worht a look are elliot colemans new organic grower - does the feeding you/family bit
and richard perkins regenerative agricutlure book is great if your wanting a bit of a playbook for setting up diversity on farm without doing glamping etc..

 

[Kiwi Pete]

It depends what you want out of books as well,; I like books that stop my direction of travel (kinda like the past few pages of this thread, sorry guys) rather than just keep the echo-chamber-bias-confirmation thing going

Grazing is just one tool, how many books do you read about "rest"?
About how to set fire to the landscape to facilitate regeneration?
About failed civilisations and famines and disease and all the other stuff that comes with agriculture, is what I'm getting at.... we need to be smart about what we do with the land we have, or we're just going the same way.

Maybe we want to

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

It depends what you want out of books as well,; I like books that stop my direction of travel (kinda like the past few pages of this thread, sorry guys) rather than just keep the echo-chamber-bias-confirmation thing going

Grazing is just one tool, how many books do you read about "rest"?
About how to set fire to the landscape to facilitate regeneration?
About failed civilisations and famines and disease and all the other stuff that comes with agriculture, is what I'm getting at.... we need to be smart about what we do with the land we have, or we're just going the same way.

Maybe we want to

Yes. Sapiens by Noah Yuval Hararri is thought provoking. (Don't waste money on Homo Deus, it's sequel, though as it's largely repetition).

Dirt by David Montgomery is good on that front too with discussion of possibly why civilisations collapse.

And definitely read the old stuff: Frank Newman- Turner, lady Eve Balfour etc. There's huge wisdom in those.