"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Just pointing out that all the stress created attempting to better the nstural carrying capacity of the land is ultimately futile in a business sense, and inviting people to look outside the "yield is king" box they think they're trapped in.

There is very little point spending the evenings in a tractor unless you really want to avoid what's at home
do you know of any research on what varieties, cattle prefer, other than the bulk standard mixes, might just improve the natural capacity of the land, just growing the 'cream' for the buggers. Then, of course, we have to get rid of the weeds, they most certainly don't help. It's an interesting thought though, the perfect mix, would give max production, with least imputs, like the perennial grain plant, a dream, at the moment.
 

Treg

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cornwall
do you know of any research on what varieties, cattle prefer, other than the bulk standard mixes, might just improve the natural capacity of the land, just growing the 'cream' for the buggers. Then, of course, we have to get rid of the weeds, they most certainly don't help. It's an interesting thought though, the perfect mix, would give max production, with least imputs, like the perennial grain plant, a dream, at the moment.
Newman Turner did experiments with different herbs / mixes / varieties, sowed squares of different mixes then let the cows choose & then recorded which squares the cows preferred.
Sorry @som farmer can't remember which book he published it in, I would imagine it would have been Fertility Pasture by Newman Turner but may have been one of his other books.
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
do you know of any research on what varieties, cattle prefer, other than the bulk standard mixes, might just improve the natural capacity of the land, just growing the 'cream' for the buggers. Then, of course, we have to get rid of the weeds, they most certainly don't help. It's an interesting thought though, the perfect mix, would give max production, with least imputs, like the perennial grain plant, a dream, at the moment.
Newman Turner did experiments with different herbs / mixes / varieties, sowed squares of different mixes then let the cows choose & then recorded which squares the cows preferred.
Sorry @som farmer can't remember which book he published it in, I would imagine it would have been Fertility Pasture by Newman Turner but may have been one of his other books.
Fred Provenza has researched and published about this. His finding is essentially that what each animal finds appetising varies with their nutritional needs. You can offer the same choice to the same animal and get different preferences expressed each time. This is one of the key factors behind the value of diversity in forage species.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
we sow a ley, we are fussy about what the mixture is, we take care to put it in correctly, and basically do our best, but never ask the poor old cow, if she likes it, or not ! Mind you, l put a new ley in, with all the 'top' high sugar varieties in, and l know the cows hated that, acute acidosis, and a neatly trimmed hedge, and a sizable drop in the bulk tank.
Dad used to make cheese here, bit before my memory time, and he always said, the cheese maker would tell him, which field the cow were grazing, from the 'smell' of the cheese, he was 'banned' from grazing 1 field, by the cheese maker, it didn't make good cheese. Why, not a clue, true ?, only what he said.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Fred Provenza has researched and published about this. His finding is essentially that what each animal finds appetising varies with their nutritional needs. You can offer the same choice to the same animal and get different preferences expressed each time. This is one of the key factors behind the value of diversity in forage species.
answers that quite nicely then, chuck in loads of different types, and at least one should suit their taste buds, each grazing. Does make the case about growing several types of prg, and clover, somewhat weaker, and yet that is what we are 'advised' to do. Son and l, moving fences yesterday, were talking about the 2 fields we were grazing. The first, a 2 acre bit, is being tightly grazed ( needs must ) but has kept 15 600kg cows for 12 days, and will keep them for another 8 with a bit of hay, this looked thick, but as we can very clearly see the ground, it wasn't, we over drilled some vetch into this one, not enough seed, but it will be interesting to see how that comes back. The second a 'dry' mix, 4 types prg, and red fesque, w clover, year 2, not grazing tight ! but you can definitely see how much ground cover there is, much better. Then son was on about, how the leys used to 'reseed' themselves, after a cut of hay, which isn't done much now, then fertility of the new varieties ( low ), perhaps with the more diverse leys, a cut of hay, might be a good idea.
Definitely thinking of adding small leaf clover, which we usually avoid for the med and large leaf types, thinking it might help ground cover. Going back to hay, and self seeding, the old pp, when hayed, there would be a whole layer of seeds, on the ground.
 
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holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
answers that quite nicely then, chuck in loads of different types, and at least one should suit their taste buds, each grazing. Does make the case about growing several types of prg, and clover, somewhat weaker, and yet that is what we are 'advised' to do. Son and l, moving fences yesterday, were talking about the 2 fields we were grazing. The first, a 2 acre bit, is being tightly grazed ( needs must ) but has kept 15 600kg cows for 12 days, and will keep them for another 8 with a bit of hay, this looked thick, but as we can very clearly see the ground, it wasn't, we over drilled some vetch into this one, not enough seed, but it will be interesting to see how that comes back. The second a 'dry' mix, 4 types prg, and red fesque, w clover, year 2, not grazing tight ! but you can definitely see how much ground cover there is, much better. Then son was on about, how the leys used to 'reseed' themselves, after a cut of hay, which isn't done much now, then fertility of the new varieties ( low ), perhaps with the more diverse leys, a cut of hay, might be a good idea.
Definitely thinking of adding small leaf clover, which we usually avoid for the med and large leaf types, thinking it might help ground cover. Going back to hay, and self seeding, the old pp, when hayed, there would be a whole layer of seeds, on the ground.
Consider adding in some other species as well while there's bare ground for it to take in. Plantains, herbs and the like. The cows would thank you for it.

Interesting you mention them hitting the hedges. Browsing woody vegetation is a natural behaviour too. It's probably more nutritious as well given that the soil health is often much better under the hedges than out in the field.
 
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crashbox

Member
Livestock Farmer
Catching up with this thread, still trying to wrap my head around this holistic grazing in a dairy situation. Few pages back @Kiwi Pete spoke about 40m² per cow to fully feed in early rotations, that would be a mighty strong cover in a "conventional" viewpoint. How do we get to that kind of cover without early housing or delayed turnout? Or am I still viewing this with a reductionist viewpoint?
Got similar questions here... grazing platform too small to rely wholly on grazing even in the best times, just due to farm layout.
So buffer feed all year. But, looking to turn this into a positive, we can try to use the buffer to help longer rotations, and also increase stock impact (kg live weight per hectare).
Also trialling diverse species, and grazing bigger covers, hopefully we can build soil health and a more resilient platform. On quite poor, dry ground here so aiming to use the cows to improve what we have.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
Consider adding in some other species as well while there's bare ground for it to take in. Plantains, herbs and the like. The cows would thank you for it.

Interesting you mention them hitting the hedges. Browsing woody vegetation is a natural behaviour too. It's probably more nutritious as well given that the soil health is often much better under the hedges than our in the field.
Dad would say you should put a fence tight to the hedge and allow the hedge to grow through the fence so the cows can pick at what grows through and also reach over and pick at the top of the hedge.
some stuff they will eat down better than you could cut it with a hedgetrimmer
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
do you know of any research on what varieties, cattle prefer, other than the bulk standard mixes, might just improve the natural capacity of the land, just growing the 'cream' for the buggers. Then, of course, we have to get rid of the weeds, they most certainly don't help. It's an interesting thought though, the perfect mix, would give max production, with least imputs, like the perennial grain plant, a dream, at the moment.
Heaps of research, because otherwise nothing would get sold. They'll [cattle] adapt to anything, as long as it's plants.....

I know a bloke through FB who has cattle picking away at tumbleweeds and saltbush-looking stuff, and the cattle do well on that. Likewise, tussock is pretty much the diet of many cattle down here, and they must make milk off it because the best calves come from the "rough looking" farms
Probably the most expensive-to-produce calves come from the nice "tidy looking" farms, because that's where the skinny cows and shiny machines live

interesting job being a truckie, because you see an awful lot of the countryside and chinwag with all the farmers, amazing what has been "sold" over the past couple of generations, regarding your question.
20210409_083630.jpg
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
we sow a ley, we are fussy about what the mixture is, we take care to put it in correctly, and basically do our best, but never ask the poor old cow, if she likes it, or not ! Mind you, l put a new ley in, with all the 'top' high sugar varieties in, and l know the cows hated that, acute acidosis, and a neatly trimmed hedge, and a sizable drop in the bulk tank.
Dad used to make cheese here, bit before my memory time, and he always said, the cheese maker would tell him, which field the cow were grazing, from the 'smell' of the cheese, he was 'banned' from grazing 1 field, by the cheese maker, it didn't make good cheese. Why, not a clue, true ?, only what he said.
There's a nice couple up the valley who make cheese, they won't feed the cows (7 of them) any baleage or silage because they learnt the hard way that it makes awful cheese.
And the best cheese of the lot is their "winter special" stuff, which is when their cows are grazing the long acre - it'll mostly be cocksfoot, yarrow and a bit of browntop because these species thrive on the once-a-year grazing the long acre gets
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Consider adding in some other species as well while there's bare ground for it to take in. Plantains, herbs and the like. The cows would thank you for it.

Interesting you mention them hitting the hedges. Browsing woody vegetation is a natural behaviour too. It's probably more nutritious as well given that the soil health is often much better under the hedges than our in the field.
they certainly trimmed the hedges, we then kindly put a rack of straw for them, they fought to clear that, before touching the grass, so, day 1, they need some fibre, day 2, they definitely want fibre, day3 straw, no day 4. But that mix was meant to be 'the best', we silaged it after that, then end of summer, put hfrs on it, which basically fought to get out, they ate into the hedge, and through the wire. Germinal came out to 'inspect' it, then gave us 20kg clover seed, to 'dilute' it. Another thing to avoid.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
There's a nice couple up the valley who make cheese, they won't feed the cows (7 of them) any baleage or silage because they learnt the hard way that it makes awful cheese.
And the best cheese of the lot is their "winter special" stuff, which is when their cows are grazing the long acre - it'll mostly be cocksfoot, yarrow and a bit of browntop because these species thrive on the once-a-year grazing the long acre gets
has animal breeding, and plant breeding, gone in the same direction, or degrees of opposite ?
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
has animal breeding, and plant breeding, gone in the same direction, or degrees of opposite ?
Probably these plants are bred for farmers, and animals have been selected to work with the type of landscape farming produces.

I tried "buying stock from a harder farm" and killed a couple with "kindness", waterbelly from more protein than they were bred or adapted to handle, crystals block the urethra and dead steers and bulls were the result.

So I know what can be done with "nice green grass", you need to source stock/genetics that can handle that type of protein excess and live long enough to get your money back out of them.

So to that end there's probably a bit of a divergence, in both fields. You can definitely find adapted-to-short-sh!t cattle if you buy dairy cross beef, and you can definitely find cattle that get fat off a decent view.
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
Probably these plants are bred for farmers, and animals have been selected to work with the type of landscape farming produces.

I tried "buying stock from a harder farm" and killed a couple with "kindness", waterbelly from more protein than they were bred or adapted to handle, crystals block the urethra and dead steers and bulls were the result.

So I know what can be done with "nice green grass", you need to source stock/genetics that can handle that type of protein excess and live long enough to get your money back out of them.

So to that end there's probably a bit of a divergence, in both fields. You can definitely find adapted-to-short-sh!t cattle if you buy dairy cross beef, and you can definitely find cattle that get fat off a decent view.
Fascinating, isn't it, how diverse we animals can be as well. I was reading Tim Spector's book recently about our (human) food system and he says that he and his wife show widely different blood responses to a high glycaemic index meal (toast and jam) with his blood sugar peaking way higher than hers. Same meal, utterly different response. Our grazing animals would, likewise, vary hugely in response to the same diet.
 
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Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Fascinating, isn't it, how diverse we animals can be as well. I was reading Tim Spector's book recently about our (human) food system and he says that he and his wife show widely different blood responses to a high glycaemic index meal (toast and jam) with his blood sugar peaking way higher than hers. Same meal, utterly different response. Our grazing animals would, likewise, vary hugely in response to the same diet.
Quite a theme going on here; if you lull the public into "cheap food" then diversity of diet diminishes because they use their disposable income on diversity of gadgets instead.
"Oh, lamb is so expensive we just don't eat it much anymore" and you could probably substitute "lamb" for seafood or quite a few other things that would have been part of a seasonal diet?

Instead of all things in moderation.... we have a few things dressed up in different ways.

You certainly observe this happening in a household with smalls running around, the boys go through 'phases' even when it comes to what goes on the toast in the mornings - jam used to be yucky and now the jam just seems to disappear

and, generally the thing going out of fashion is whatever it is you just stocked up on 🤬
 

Guleesh

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Isle of Skye
Not really on topic, but thought I'd stick these photos up.

Things just starting to green up a little, I'm getting a bit more excited about the coming season, I've been seeing a few lambs in neighbours fields whilst out and about, I have the usual thoughts that waiting till May for lambing is leaving it a bit late, my wife took this photo this morning.
DSC_0671.JPG


and believe or not she then took this one a couple of hours later which is looking up the hill a few hundred yards from where the first photo was taken.
DSC_0917.JPG


A timely reminder of why it's best to just be patient, and work with the seasons, the lambs are better off where they are and with night-time temperatures still getting below zero the grass on our lambing fields isn't anywhere near ready for grazing.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
While we're off topic, two photos from yesterday. The high temp won't be "real" but no small wonder I came home feeling stuffed, I was pulled over to let the coolant temp drop (108° is a bit high)
20210409_131535.jpg
20210409_073648.jpg

The low temp wasn't accurate either as I needed water to get the door open on the ute 🙁

Luckily we have fog and heavy heavy dews to keep things going, because the 117mm we had in the first 3 days of the year was basically "it"
Screenshot_20210410-102606_Chrome.jpg
Screenshot_20210410-102549_Chrome.jpg

(we're in the red bit at the bottom of second map)

local commentators are calling it 'a green drought' but at least we have 140 days grub in front of us
 

Guleesh

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Isle of Skye
While we're off topic, two photos from yesterday. The high temp won't be "real" but no small wonder I came home feeling stuffed, I was pulled over to let the coolant temp drop (108° is a bit high)View attachment 953360View attachment 953361
The low temp wasn't accurate either as I needed water to get the door open on the ute 🙁

Luckily we have fog and heavy heavy dews to keep things going, because the 117mm we had in the first 3 days of the year was basically "it"View attachment 953362View attachment 953363
(we're in the red bit at the bottom of second map)

local commentators are calling it 'a green drought' but at least we have 140 days grub in front of us

You've got it under control.

What's really crap would be choosing between either your stock having to really struggle or your bank balance dwindle whilst you hope and pray that you get the rain or the sun or whatever it is that you think you've missed out on.

The only part of the weather we can depend on is the fact it is undependable.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
You've got it under control.

What's really crap would be choosing between either your stock having to really struggle or your bank balance dwindle whilst you hope and pray that you get the rain or the sun or whatever it is that you think you've missed out on.

The only part of the weather we can depend on is the fact it is undependable.
Yep, it all seems to be a lot of "why are we bothering" when things are going good! And then a curve-ball comes in low.... and suddenly it becomes quite obvious.

Just like the high density grazing last winter, wow what a difference treading in that litter has made. Pushing a pigtail in without needing to stomp on the foot bit, and then you try to do it on someone else's farm to let yourself over a fence in the truck 😳
just about "cordless drill material" whereas our top inch is dry packed "sheet compost"

now I've had a moan it's begun to rain 🤣😅😍
 

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