"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Fenwick]

ust pointing out that all the stress created attempting to better the natural carrying capacity of the land is ultimately futile in a business sense, and inviting people to look outside the "yield is king" box they think they're trapped in.

The thing is I am starting to think that the natural carrying capacity of the land is much higher then we realise.

we sow a ley, we are fussy about what the mixture is, we take care to put it in correctly, and basically do our best, but never ask the poor old cow, if she likes it, or not ! Mind you, l put a new ley in, with all the 'top' high sugar varieties in, and l know the cows hated that, acute acidosis, and a neatly trimmed hedge, and a sizable drop in the bulk tank.
Dad used to make cheese here, bit before my memory time, and he always said, the cheese maker would tell him, which field the cow were grazing, from the 'smell' of the cheese, he was 'banned' from grazing 1 field, by the cheese maker, it didn't make good cheese. Why, not a clue, true ?, only what he said.

Got quite a few farming cheesemaking freinds. Massive difference in concerning taste texture and production from one field to another, and one season to another. Of course we are talking about real cheese, not that wierd homogonous pasturised stuff in the supermarkets.

Milk is not just milk, I remember when the Mrs was breastfeeding the kids she would avoid all gassy foods (beans and cabbage and jeruselum artichokes etc) as it would give the babys wind, and then they wouldn't sleep etc. I thought that was incredible. Fantastic stuff nature.

Dad would say you should put a fence tight to the hedge and allow the hedge to grow through the fence so the cows can pick at what grows through and also reach over and pick at the top of the hedge.
some stuff they will eat down better than you could cut it with a hedgetrimmer

We moved most of our fencelines 4 metres in from the hedges a few years back. So now the cattle can get right in and around them. They browse the lower branches and stomp out all the brambles and we don't have to trim our use a brushcutter or any of that nonsense any more. It has saved us countless hours of work over the years and the cattle are all the better for it.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

The thing is I am starting to think that the natural carrying capacity of the land is much higher then we realise.



Got quite a few farming cheesemaking freinds. Massive difference in concerning taste texture and production from one field to another, and one season to another. Of course we are talking about real cheese, not that wierd homogonous pasturised stuff in the supermarkets.

Milk is not just milk, I remember when the Mrs was breastfeeding the kids she would avoid all gassy foods (beans and cabbage and jeruselum artichokes etc) as it would give the babys wind, and then they wouldn't sleep etc. I thought that was incredible. Fantastic stuff nature.




We moved most of our fencelines 4 metres in from the hedges a few years back. So now the cattle can get right in and around them. They browse the lower branches and stomp out all the brambles and we don't have to trim our use a brushcutter or any of that nonsense any more. It has saved us countless hours of work over the years and the cattle are all the better for it.

I think you're right, we just haven't really looked to the "natural" carrying capacity since the advent of tools that just let us grow pasture well / well enough.
For example, this new fancy "silvopasture" thing which has been going on for hundreds of years to feed stock in the dry... a bit of progress meant that it was all-but-forgotten, aided by a change in weather patterns which meant those old working trees became redundant.

Then sicklebar and disc mowers came along and hay from pasture became the done thing- but to my mind if you can grow 10T of grass DM and 10T of tree DM on a hectare then it beats the pants off growing 15T of pasture and relying on that one type of planting to do the same in any weather?

And now it's "Roman sandals V2.0"? So it could be time to think about more than just grass on our landscape, and put the trees back, put them to work.

I definitely now see that we're only just tickling the tiger when it comes to grazing, and we are only on our first section of the kiwitech stuff.... it's already "wowed" me

 

[som farmer]

just read an article from our vets, re fibre at turnout, fresh grass, high in sugar, and protien, low dm, and quite a few DA's, displaces abomasum, and recommend feeding high energy, and fibrous foods, hay straw etc, and yet, on the all things dairy thread, when l said about how quickly grass goes straight through, and querying how much of the food value, was actually used, by the cow, in the time it stayed in, and what would be the nutritional gain, by 'slowing' down that passage time, immediately got put down, by the spring grazers. Two very contrasting views, the spr chaps, wanted warm weather, for high protien grass, the higher the better, with no buffer, for max milk from grass. I calculate a DA would cost roughly 1 ton hay, so feeding some long fibre, slowing down internal passage, should be more beneficial, to both cow and pocket, unless l am missing something. One of the things that was very obvious to us, last summer, feeding hay as a top up, for grass shortage, was the constituent value of the milk, as the higher it is, the higher the price paid .
So if fibre is that important, what sources of fibre are available, as already said, hedge browsing is a useful supply, but not necessarily available all the time, or quantity, hay/straw obvious, what about weeds, or which weeds, do herbs, as in chickory, plantains etc, provide any ? Then we can look at where the plate metre, and regen policies actually completely agree, over wintered grass, or stock pile, both contain 'dead' grass leaf's from last autumn, which should help fibre, esp as a bit in every bite. Silviculture, never had any experience, nor will, as if we planted some now, l wouldn't see the benefit, but political interference, could cause problems there, planting trees, is politically a must do, but can see the new 'woods' being 'protected' by the 'greens'.
We have, and would again, feed 'standing hay' to dry cows, it's the ideal feed, just got to get enough grass, to do it ! but my uncle used to feed all summer, not 'quite' standing hay, to his guernsey/jersey herd, all summer, it was the only way to ensure grass was available, all summer, that herd, money wise, equalled our friesian herd, on milk sales, but changed to hols, which wouldn't graze that grass, so buffer feed, which eventually became a 'ration'! So breed, type of animal, can also affect things.

 

[Henarar]

just read an article from our vets, re fibre at turnout, fresh grass, high in sugar, and protien, low dm, and quite a few DA's, displaces abomasum, and recommend feeding high energy, and fibrous foods, hay straw etc, and yet, on the all things dairy thread, when l said about how quickly grass goes straight through, and querying how much of the food value, was actually used, by the cow, in the time it stayed in, and what would be the nutritional gain, by 'slowing' down that passage time, immediately got put down, by the spring grazers. Two very contrasting views, the spr chaps, wanted warm weather, for high protien grass, the higher the better, with no buffer, for max milk from grass. I calculate a DA would cost roughly 1 ton hay, so feeding some long fibre, slowing down internal passage, should be more beneficial, to both cow and pocket, unless l am missing something. One of the things that was very obvious to us, last summer, feeding hay as a top up, for grass shortage, was the constituent value of the milk, as the higher it is, the higher the price paid .
So if fibre is that important, what sources of fibre are available, as already said, hedge browsing is a useful supply, but not necessarily available all the time, or quantity, hay/straw obvious, what about weeds, or which weeds, do herbs, as in chickory, plantains etc, provide any ? Then we can look at where the plate metre, and regen policies actually completely agree, over wintered grass, or stock pile, both contain 'dead' grass leaf's from last autumn, which should help fibre, esp as a bit in every bite. Silviculture, never had any experience, nor will, as if we planted some now, l wouldn't see the benefit, but political interference, could cause problems there, planting trees, is politically a must do, but can see the new 'woods' being 'protected' by the 'greens'.
We have, and would again, feed 'standing hay' to dry cows, it's the ideal feed, just got to get enough grass, to do it ! but my uncle used to feed all summer, not 'quite' standing hay, to his guernsey/jersey herd, all summer, it was the only way to ensure grass was available, all summer, that herd, money wise, equalled our friesian herd, on milk sales, but changed to hols, which wouldn't graze that grass, so buffer feed, which eventually became a 'ration'! So breed, type of animal, can also affect things.

Seems to me that some spend a fortune on growing rocket fuel grass then spend another fortune on stuff to feed with it in an attempt to keep it in the cow and another fortune on vets fees, why not just grow feed for cows all in one and let them eat it, its not difficult, it tends to happen on its own more or less.
I know we haven't been involved with dairy for 23 years and I wasn't so much involved anyway back then [more contracting] but I don't remember DA's, wouldn't have been sure what they were if you hadn't said and I don't know what causes them

 

[Henarar]

So breed, type of animal, can also affect things.

Why keep a breed/type and then spend all your time forcing your farm to grow what they like ? why not keep a breed/type that naturally does well on what your farm has to offer ?
more go with the flow less beating with a big stick

 

[Henarar]

Perhaps I am just a lazy bugger

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Why keep a breed/type and then spend all your time forcing your farm to grow what they like ? why not keep a breed/type that naturally does well on what your farm has to offer ?
more go with the flow less beating with a big stick

That's about where we arrived at, I think. A few bigger buggers to do the heavy lifting and rent a mob of smalls to put a bit in the bank each month.

It doesn't really suit us to just do one or the other because in a wet year when the grass grows too fast here, it probably does for everyone else around and we can't guarantee that we'd get the number of grazers we need to keep on top of it all.

So we might do some bull beef in the spring, as long as they don't run at too much of a loss it's still cheaper and easier than running up a cost baling it and then feeding it all back out to them again

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Perhaps I am just a lazy bugger

You and me both

 

[som farmer]

Why keep a breed/type and then spend all your time forcing your farm to grow what they like ? why not keep a breed/type that naturally does well on what your farm has to offer ?
more go with the flow less beating with a big stick

seems to me, both posts hit the nail on the head. Fashion is probably the best way to account for it.
Some scientists spend their working lives, creating better strains of plants, that will out perform those they created last week, in reality, there's bugger all difference on a field scale, in fact, could be the reverse, as those scientist have reached a level, where improvement is miniscule, and then, only in trial plots. What they may have achieved, is a weaker, but slightly high yielding plant, that cannot stand competition, either from disease, or weeds. In feed value terms, while on paper, the value is higher, does that equal the 'problems' with actually making it grow, under field conditions, or how stock can practically use it, rather than a lab test showing it's theoretical feed value. Gene editing could perhaps make some real changes, but that's the future.
From the 'type/breed' of stock, breeding has focused on many aspects of 'finished' animal, in dairy, yield was the driving force, which let the holstien take over from the friesian, which, in turn ousted the shorthorn. But the extra milk yield, came at a cost, it could not be produced from forage, therefore concentrates were fed, in increasing amounts, to support that increasing yield, along the way, many many good attributes of stock, were left behind. With beef, about which l don't know to much, fashion took us down the continental breed route, and then years were spent 'altering' them to UK needs. On the other hand, the native breeds, which utilise forage better, got cast aside, rather than breeding them up, as other countries did, l have heard countless times about American/Canadian angus or herefords being to 'big', probably equal to continentals

 

[Woolless]

seems to me, both posts hit the nail on the head. Fashion is probably the best way to account for it.
Some scientists spend their working lives, creating better strains of plants, that will out perform those they created last week, in reality, there's bugger all difference on a field scale, in fact, could be the reverse, as those scientist have reached a level, where improvement is miniscule, and then, only in trial plots. What they may have achieved, is a weaker, but slightly high yielding plant, that cannot stand competition, either from disease, or weeds. In feed value terms, while on paper, the value is higher, does that equal the 'problems' with actually making it grow, under field conditions, or how stock can practically use it, rather than a lab test showing it's theoretical feed value. Gene editing could perhaps make some real changes, but that's the future.
From the 'type/breed' of stock, breeding has focused on many aspects of 'finished' animal, in dairy, yield was the driving force, which let the holstien take over from the friesian, which, in turn ousted the shorthorn. But the extra milk yield, came at a cost, it could not be produced from forage, therefore concentrates were fed, in increasing amounts, to support that increasing yield, along the way, many many good attributes of stock, were left behind. With beef, about which l don't know to much, fashion took us down the continental breed route, and then years were spent 'altering' them to UK needs. On the other hand, the native breeds, which utilise forage better, got cast aside, rather than breeding them up, as other countries did, l have heard countless times about American/Canadian angus or herefords being to 'big', probably equal to continentals

The consensus of the more clued up US ranchers I have listened to is that most have pursued bigger calf weights at weaning, which has led to bigger, hungrier cows, more problems and less profit. The feedlots and processors benefit from paying less per kg for a bigger calf.

 

[Rod Dumbreck]

Perhaps I am just a lazy bugger

Nothing wrong with that, I'll lend you my motto....

Laziness is a sign of efficiency

 

[Henarar]

seems to me, both posts hit the nail on the head. Fashion is probably the best way to account for it.
Some scientists spend their working lives, creating better strains of plants, that will out perform those they created last week, in reality, there's bugger all difference on a field scale, in fact, could be the reverse, as those scientist have reached a level, where improvement is miniscule, and then, only in trial plots. What they may have achieved, is a weaker, but slightly high yielding plant, that cannot stand competition, either from disease, or weeds. In feed value terms, while on paper, the value is higher, does that equal the 'problems' with actually making it grow, under field conditions, or how stock can practically use it, rather than a lab test showing it's theoretical feed value. Gene editing could perhaps make some real changes, but that's the future.
From the 'type/breed' of stock, breeding has focused on many aspects of 'finished' animal, in dairy, yield was the driving force, which let the holstien take over from the friesian, which, in turn ousted the shorthorn. But the extra milk yield, came at a cost, it could not be produced from forage, therefore concentrates were fed, in increasing amounts, to support that increasing yield, along the way, many many good attributes of stock, were left behind. With beef, about which l don't know to much, fashion took us down the continental breed route, and then years were spent 'altering' them to UK needs. On the other hand, the native breeds, which utilise forage better, got cast aside, rather than breeding them up, as other countries did, l have heard countless times about American/Canadian angus or herefords being to 'big', probably equal to continentals

I don't quite see the continental V native argument and forage utilisation as far as beef suckler cows are concerned, we have allsorts here and most get to fat fed on what many would consider rubbish
had the vet here to PD some a couple weeks ago, he commented on how quiet the cows were and the condition they were in.
I know that being over fat can lead to them not getting in calf but at least with the price of culls ATM they make dam good money where a thin one wouldn't

 

[crashbox]

Why keep a breed/type and then spend all your time forcing your farm to grow what they like ? why not keep a breed/type that naturally does well on what your farm has to offer ?
more go with the flow less beating with a big stick

Spreading fixed costs is one reason, inc. paying down debt.
If you have 100 cubicle cow house, drive more milk out of the 100 cows, to pay off the cost of the cow house. Then, alas, a could easily find yourself on the treadmill.
Not many small herds around any more in the UK, it's a shame but a reflection of the market.

 

[som farmer]

Spreading fixed costs is one reason, inc. paying down debt.
If you have 100 cubicle cow house, drive more milk out of the 100 cows, to pay off the cost of the cow house. Then, alas, a could easily find yourself on the treadmill.
Not many small herds around any more in the UK, it's a shame but a reflection of the market.

many dairy farms listened to '110% cows to cubicles', we have done it, l recall being told at college, that was correct, but many stock thrive better at lower 'stocking' rates, our cows have milked extremely well, at 85/90%, this winter, a result of changing milk pattern, calves always seem to do better in smaller groups. But, if we all cut out the worst 10 %, l would expect, in a week or so, milk production/growth rate, would have negated that 10% cut. Keeping high numbers of stock, certainly makes that treadmill go faster, but l doubt it increases profit, in the same ratio. In breeding stock, many traits are desired, and bred for, but some traits are ignored, like, longevity, health, and reliability, others such as growth rate, 'shape' calving ease, are paramount. In dairy, we are bombarded with scoring on multiple traits, not only yield and shape, but resistance to TB, mastitus, dermatitis, fertility etc, but at the end of the day, we need an animal that lasts, is fertile, healthy, and does the job of production, many of the above traits, represent the weaknesses that have been overlooked for yield, and are only now coming 'back into fashion', proven by the increasing xbreds, and 'old' breeds coming back. Another full cycle of the wheel.
Small dairy herds, l can see an increasing come back for them, either as 'part time', or a way for 'new' young farmers coming in, a small parlour can be 'put in', for virtually nothing, and still plenty of cheaper cows about, as long as you ignore the headline prices, the difficulties lie with the processors, and collection, but, right place, ie tanker passing, i'm sure some processors would take the long term view, and help, everyone realises we need young people in the industry, this is one way 'in' for new entrants. Large herds expanded to help pay for upgrading of farms.

 

[jonnyjon]

Threw a bit of fodder rape into the herbal ley, flowering now, will it be a problem when grazing cattle in a few weeks time?

 

[som farmer]

Threw a bit of fodder rape into the herbal ley, flowering now, will it be a problem when grazing cattle in a few weeks time?

no, they happily eat it, be interesting to see if it shoots up again.

 

[jonnyjon]

no, they happily eat it, be interesting to see if it shoots up again.

Grand, wondered if it might become poisonous

 

[som farmer]

Grand, wondered if it might become poisonous

fed it in full flower to later calving spring cows, happily clear the lot, we did notice some sprouting again, but grnd worked for next crop, it would be interesting to know, if it's worthwhile, in a grazing ley, another layer of diversity.

 

[jonnyjon]

fed it in full flower to later calving spring cows, happily clear the lot, we did notice some sprouting again, but grnd worked for next crop, it would be interesting to know, if it's worthwhile, in a grazing ley, another layer of diversity.

Will report my findings

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Little cattle and little men seem to have adjusted to the techno OK.

Quite neat to just relax, and know it's pretty much 'all under control' on the ranch