"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[holwellcourtfarm]

Why farmers should avoid magic and opt for science

Comment: Too much attention is placed on fads say agribusiness consultants, Phil Holmes and Ian McLean.

www.farmonline.com.au

I agree with questions 1 to 4, then it goes wrong. What about soil health? Why is Q9, "Benchmarking against your peers", so crucial?

 

[Henarar]

Why farmers should avoid magic and opt for science

Comment: Too much attention is placed on fads say agribusiness consultants, Phil Holmes and Ian McLean.

www.farmonline.com.au

Actually your doing well today Roy, those two posts go together really well

 

[Henarar]

I agree with questions 1 to 4, then it goes wrong. What about soil health? Why is Q9, "Benchmarking against your peers", so crucial?

The need to know how everyone else is doing ?
You done better than me I didn't understand most of the questions

 

[NZDan]

Indeed.. never seem to photograph on normal days, heres a pic of the end of my croft after a bit of rain
View attachment 838577

That is more like it, looks like a bit of wind as well.

 

[BobTheSmallholder]

sorry @BobTheSmallholder - I wasn't trying to be a smart arse, the above video wasn't aimed at you, I posted it before I saw your post

there are so many good videos out there, but I can only think of Australian or North American ones at the moment - would be much better to show UK ones that maybe could resonate a bit more in a similar landscape / climate

I'm sure there will be plenty of suggestions here soon from the locals

No worries I quickly figured out it wasn't meant for me!

A big part of my plans is to do a youtube channel of my own for exactly the reason you state, there really isn't a comprehensive channel covering all this from a UK perspective.

 

[BobTheSmallholder]

You deserve a medal already....

I'll try to find a certain video by the late, great Gordon Hazard, he explains well the principles of cattle grazing and grazing management.

It doesn't all revolve around UHD grazing, that's just a tool that can speed up results, the main thing I'd suggest is to match the grazing with the season.
Little point using 3-day breaks when the grass is rapidly growing, you hit regrowth and this is limiting.
Likewise, little point moving them 6 times a day if you can't sustain it, or overcook some breaks and undercook others - it all has to be sustainable before it can be regenerative, ie if an 8 or 80 year old can't manage it, it isn't sustainable

Thanks very much but there is a long way to go before we retire for tea and medals!

I'm trying to approach it from a "lets give it a go as it definitely won't make anything worse" angle and he is keen but as always money is tight so need a quick and easy way to show results before investing in proper moveable fencing etc. So far we have a small battery powered fencing unit, about 75m of polywire and maybe 25 plastic posts... going to start by fencing the cattle away from their favorite spots that are getting hammered to show that they will eat the scrappy bits too

 

[Ukjay]

Sad but a realistic overview of how we the supposed carers of the planet 'Humans' - Help Improve Civilisation......

 

[BobTheSmallholder]

Thanks for the positive replies everyone, I'm really excited as there is woodland (dense conifer plantation ) which we are going to thin out a bit and use as winter shelter. Aim is to try not to house anything except the young stock this winter to reduce feed costs and try out a bit of bale grazing. Early next year chickens and maybe forest raised piggies

They've done an amazing job so far, there are rabbits, hares, deer, all sorts of wildlife on the farm and they reseeded about half the pasture with clover rich multispecies seeds so next year the cattle should be fed like kings! Biggest problem atm is the very heavy clay soil and standing water everytime the slightest moisture appears. Will be trying to add every gram of carbon possible to improve the soil structure ASAP

 

[Crex]

I thought life in the Western Isles was rugged and harsh. Looks more like a walk on the beach!
Meanwhile, in the Peak District, grazing mud bath is becoming the norm down here. Fancy wintering some heifers???
View attachment 838518

One of the unfair advantages that some crofters in the Outer Hebrides have is access to machair land, where stock can be happily out wintered in the worst of weather, with no/very little poaching.

 

[Crex]

That is more like it, looks like a bit of wind as well.

We are going to have to do something drastic with lambing dates if you want to see the Outer Hebrides in the summer time.

 

[Crex]

On the machair.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Opinion

1. None of this is logical, but it is happening5 hours, 11 minutes ago
2. No Stories Found

Will glyphosate cases raise new challenges for grains production?
Andrew Norris17 Oct 2019, 7 a.m.
Opinion

Share
Tweet
Aa

The ability to produce a grain crop with limited moisture could be at threat with the increasingly negative perceptions towards glyphosate.
Share
Tweet
Aa

Farmers around the world have watched with concern as, in the past couple years, claims against glyphosate and its manufacturers first turned up in US courts.
In May this year, in the US, a third case was found against the chemical's original manufacturer, Monsanto (now owned by Bayer), which was ordered to pay $2 billion in damages (which has since been reduced).



Now, proceedings have kicked off in Australia, with two court cases launched in Victoria, the first confirmed in June this year, and a third, in NSW, launched this week.
The chemical has come under fire in the European Union where some member states have banned or restricted its use, and while the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority has continued to approve the chemical as safe to use, its use on public lands in some Australian states is being reviewed.

The blows have just kept coming for this go-to chemical, which in 2015 was designated as a "probable" human carcinogen by the World Health Organisation's International Agency for Research on Cancer.
Also read:
Federal Court class action lodged - Roundup targeted
Vic government clarifies glyphosate review
First Aussie farmer launches glypho lawsuit




This all coincided with the worst drought we've experienced, which has highlighted the importance of soil moisture management, as well as ground cover and soil erosion prevention.
The ability to produce a grain harvest from minimal levels of moisture, be they stored soil moisture or in-crop rainfall, has gone far beyond what was considered possible just a few decades ago.
And a lot of this has been due to the ability to manage weeds with low toxicity inputs while minimising soil disturbance, all possible due to the practicality of glyphosate.
It has also reduced carbon emissions, with less passes required to prepare a paddock for sowing.
Yet, changing perceptions around our food production systems have eroded the acceptance of this technology.
So what might the fall-out be?
Somewhere, this anti-glyphosate movement will surely have to butt heads with the anti-(real) meat movement, at which point those on the wagon will be faced with the reality their switch to animal-free soy "milk" and fake meat was made that much easier because of the benefits of glyphosate.


So as our food production systems cop it from all angles, there may be some comfort in knowing the soy protein-based Impossible Burger (and other fake meats) was in some way made possible by glyphosate.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Opinion

1. None of this is logical, but it is happening5 hours, 11 minutes ago
2. No Stories Found

View attachment 838725
Will glyphosate cases raise new challenges for grains production?
Andrew Norris17 Oct 2019, 7 a.m.
Opinion

Share
Tweet
Aa

The ability to produce a grain crop with limited moisture could be at threat with the increasingly negative perceptions towards glyphosate.
Share
Tweet
Aa

Farmers around the world have watched with concern as, in the past couple years, claims against glyphosate and its manufacturers first turned up in US courts.
In May this year, in the US, a third case was found against the chemical's original manufacturer, Monsanto (now owned by Bayer), which was ordered to pay $2 billion in damages (which has since been reduced).



Now, proceedings have kicked off in Australia, with two court cases launched in Victoria, the first confirmed in June this year, and a third, in NSW, launched this week.
The chemical has come under fire in the European Union where some member states have banned or restricted its use, and while the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority has continued to approve the chemical as safe to use, its use on public lands in some Australian states is being reviewed.

The blows have just kept coming for this go-to chemical, which in 2015 was designated as a "probable" human carcinogen by the World Health Organisation's International Agency for Research on Cancer.
Also read:
Federal Court class action lodged - Roundup targeted
Vic government clarifies glyphosate review
First Aussie farmer launches glypho lawsuit




This all coincided with the worst drought we've experienced, which has highlighted the importance of soil moisture management, as well as ground cover and soil erosion prevention.
The ability to produce a grain harvest from minimal levels of moisture, be they stored soil moisture or in-crop rainfall, has gone far beyond what was considered possible just a few decades ago.
And a lot of this has been due to the ability to manage weeds with low toxicity inputs while minimising soil disturbance, all possible due to the practicality of glyphosate.
It has also reduced carbon emissions, with less passes required to prepare a paddock for sowing.
Yet, changing perceptions around our food production systems have eroded the acceptance of this technology.
So what might the fall-out be?
Somewhere, this anti-glyphosate movement will surely have to butt heads with the anti-(real) meat movement, at which point those on the wagon will be faced with the reality their switch to animal-free soy "milk" and fake meat was made that much easier because of the benefits of glyphosate.


So as our food production systems cop it from all angles, there may be some comfort in knowing the soy protein-based Impossible Burger (and other fake meats) was in some way made possible by glyphosate.

What do YOU think Roy? I have no experience of your crop paradigm so am unable to content other than that the evidence for damage caused by Glyphosate is building. In your situation though it may be that that trade-off is still beneficial?

 

[bitwrx]

Please forgive my self indulgence, if you will. Just started reading Holistic Management. This paragraph jumped out at me and I wanted to share it...

...because, as someone who works daily with the compromises resulting from past narrow management decisions, I bloody hope it's true.

ETA: As someone who shied away from doing any proper reading on holism, for fear of becoming a disciple, I do have to say that the man does make a bloody lot of sense. Although the puerile part of my mind is still annoyed that holism sounds like it should be a naughty word, but isn't.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Did you happen upon the article damning regen ag by Jacqueline Rowarth, it seems that the NZ fert industry is in fear of their cash-cows using less product, in a nutshell.

No real surprises from Doug, either, always the salesman; I attended an interesting talk at Telford polytech many years ago and he was on his "fire and brimstone" pulpit there as well, although mostly advocating the use of urea to enable lambing dates to be pushed forward 6 weeks.
... It went down like a cup of cold sick as one of the previous speakers had just been saying the complete opposite... somewhere in between the two is probably where most attendees already sat, but the smoko provided was very good.

I have never heard Doug in person so I'm not qualified to say but I do read his agknowledge stuff and find him quite pragmatic. He's a big fan of clover etc which is free N. I'd say for those guys using a short rotation grazing system in NZ (ie not your style of grazing) it would be demonstrable that Urea would bring the grazing season forward would it not? Whether the lambing season needs to be brought foward I wouldn't know.

You can't deny he does a good job of putting flesh on the bones of a lot of things (carbon sequestration)

 

[SilliamWhale]

I LOVE that one! It sums up our western paradigm completely!

As a counter argument

 

[SilliamWhale]

What do YOU think Roy? I have no experience of your crop paradigm so am unable to content other than that the evidence for damage caused by Glyphosate is building. In your situation though it may be that that trade-off is still beneficial?

I don't think it is.

Evidence that glyphosate could potentially be a very low level carcinogen (but possibly not) is allowing others to make a mental leap that correlation is causation and thereby they are claiming because they weren't warned about this "potential but as yet unprovable link" on a maybe/ maybe not basis they are making financial claims that the producers are culpable for what appears to be a lack of warning on the label

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I have never heard Doug in person so I'm not qualified to say but I do read his agknowledge stuff and find him quite pragmatic. He's a big fan of clover etc which is free N. I'd say for those guys using a short rotation grazing system in NZ (ie not your style of grazing) it would be demonstrable that Urea would bring the grazing season forward would it not? Whether the lambing season needs to be brought foward I wouldn't know.

You can't deny he does a good job of putting flesh on the bones of a lot of things (carbon sequestration)

Oh, for sure. He's certainly a very knowledgable and respected kinda guy, but the thing that he failed to really grasp is that none of it really translates to profit, merely production.
Health costs skyrocket, lambing losses also, but he basically walked off-stage when that was suggested.
A "talk to the hand" kinda debating style...

I don't doubt that he meant very well by his promotion of raising pasture production, I guess it's not too dissimilar to the 'yield is king' approach favoured overseas across many disciplines, that's often at the detriment of whole-enterprise profitability.
Another chap quite infamous here, is John Penno, who has recently made a complete U-turn from his earlier advice that "urea is the cheapest form of supplement", as the environmental cost was never really considered, the implications of overproduction weren't either.
And now we have large problems as an industry, however it is and was only ever "advice", and not instruction, you can't blame these guys for promoting their angle at all.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Please forgive my self indulgence, if you will. Just started reading Holistic Management. This paragraph jumped out at me and I wanted to share it...
View attachment 838864
...because, as someone who works daily with the compromises resulting from past narrow management decisions, I bloody hope it's true.

ETA: As someone who shied away from doing any proper reading on holism, for fear of becoming a disciple, I do have to say that the man does make a bloody lot of sense. Although the puerile part of my mind is still annoyed that holism sounds like it should be a naughty word, but isn't.

Remember Allan Savory as often said he wishes there was a W in front of Holism. And when you start to think of it that way its much more comfortable for a hairy arsed farmer to read it. Remove all ideas of "holistic" therapy/ massage living type idea and also the Holy side of Holism which isn't related but seems to convey a sort of spiritual side.

Holistic = Look at the Whole View, the wide view in decision making. Life is much more interesting then

 

[bitwrx]

Remember Allan Savory as often said he wishes there was a W in front of Holism. And when you start to think of it that way its much more comfortable for a hairy arsed farmer to read it. Remove all ideas of "holistic" therapy/ massage living type idea and also the Holy side of Holism which isn't related but seems to convey a sort of spiritual side.

Holistic = Look at the Whole View, the wide view in decision making. Life is much more interesting then

Yeh, it would definitely be better with the w.

If it's any consolation, a lot of engineers have trouble with the language around the engineering equivalent of holistic management. When I worked for the MOD as a graduate, I went on a two week compulsory residential course on systems engineering. Some of the concepts were similar - system of systems, define the system under design, consider relationships between disciplines/technologies - but the instructors really had trouble bringing it all together under a lexicon that didn't make people want to variously a) punch the instructor; b) punch the desk; or c) punch themselves. In the end we all left thinking "that's just good engineering, isn't it?".

I think part of my reticence stems from that experience. We got to fire an AK-47 though. And sit in a Russian tank.