"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[onesiedale]

What's burt lime? I've never heard of it.

Basic slag?

 

[Henarar]

What's burt lime? I've never heard of it.

lime that has been burnt in a kiln

 

[Woolless]

lime that has been burnt in a kiln

Ah right. That's a new one on me! Spreading that over the rushes will make them more palatable? I think I'm correct to say that rushes like acidic soil, so would help with that as well?

 

[Gulli]

I haven't been able to get a close enough look at the ground to tell you any more than there's loads of rushes. Ground must be wet (farm name suggests that!). More OM would help that? Putting that aside, my stab at it was topping the rushes early on when they've started to grow, followed by high intensity grazing followed by rest. Maybe some hay fed out would help too, adding some seed? Never thought of baling them. Would use as bedding not run the risk of spreading rush seed everywhere when dung goes out?

I wouldnt even worry about topping them, just stock it heavy and let them trample the rushes. Upping the ph will help as will sorting drainage. I'd be looking for old drains if I were you, clear the outlets and see what happens

 

[Woolless]

I wouldnt even worry about topping them, just stock it heavy and let them trample the rushes. Upping the ph will help as will sorting drainage. I'd be looking for old drains if I were you, clear the outlets and see what happens

Yes, drainage might be an issue but they are so widespread that it can't be the only one!

 

[Gulli]

Yes, drainage might be an issue but they are so widespread that it can't be the only one!

Possibly not but they'll spread from the wet areas. Soil ph is probably low as well.
My lambs will graze rushes so no reason cattle wont and what they dont graze they will stand on and sh!t on

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I haven't looked in to this thread for some time but @Kiwi Pete has stirred my grey matter into life again with a couple of posts over on the livestock forum. I have a bit to catch up on!

Been watching a few Greg Judy vids online and just ordered his second book (intersting to hear other opinions on his methods?), plus doing a bit of other reading around the holistic/mob grazing topic. Alan Savory's book is in the 'to read' pile as well. So there may be some daft questions on the way!

Anyway, a practical query first: What is the best way to deal with rushes using this type of approach? There's a farm local to me which I suspect will grow grass for fun and which I have expressed a very preliminary interest in farming/renting/partnering on, 500 acres supporting 70 suckler cows currently but a lot of it is badly overgrown with rushes. Were it a conventional farm, then I would be confident that topping followed by weedwiping would be enough for the grass to get the upper hand. But the place is organic and I would imagine that the owner would be only too pleased to hold on to that status (and so the extra sub payment!). Any ideas??

Don't use any recipes, ie every grazing you want to "mix it up" a bit. This tends to strengthen all plants, monotony tends to favour some at expense of others.
With rushes, sometimes a good hone out over winter (think, bale grazing so they get more time bored in that area without shaving the grass can gives them time to get into the rushes).
The real problem is that in many cases, rushes are the best suited plant, which makes it difficult to get other species to compete with them, but it can be done. Where we had rushes it's now mostly floating grass, but we've altered the water cycle a bit with our new grazing paradigm, this made the wet areas drier and the dry areas more productive.

 

[onesiedale]

but we've altered the water cycle a bit with our new grazing paradigm, this made the wet areas drier and the dry areas more productive.

Think you're going to have to expand a little on "your grazing paradigm" and how
you changed it to alter your water cycle to dry the ground up . . . please

 

[Henarar]

Ah right. That's a new one on me! Spreading that over the rushes will make them more palatable? I think I'm correct to say that rushes like acidic soil, so would help with that as well?

Dad told me that a lime rep turned up here one day to see if he wanted any lime, dad got him to test a field that had some rushes, dad was in two minds about having the lime and the rep said he would sell him some lime and if the cows didn't eat the rushes out afterwards he wouldn't charge for the lime, anyway dad had to pay for the lime.
this would be 40 odd years ago and before I can remember but have no reason to doubt it

 

[Bury the Trash]

Sheep will eat them , helps if they are not too clumpy and coarse for that, dont need to be too much else around at the time tho, ideal in a dry summer when keep is scarcer.

I wonder if salt spread would help palatabilty?

Big raft of rushes keeps the stock from poaching though, as a positive.

 

[Bury the Trash]

Do you measure your rainfall, just wonder how much rain fell in those 3 weeks?
Good stuff, you take nice clear photos
I'm a big fan of broadcast over drilling too for that very reason

no , no idea how much rain,suffice to say its wetter than last year at the same time.
Funnily enough got a bit interested to know, so I'm going to start recording,

,

 

[Woolless]

Sheep will eat them , helps if they are not too clumpy and coarse for that, dont need to be too much else around at the time tho, ideal in a dry summer when keep is scarcer.

I wonder if salt spread would help palatabilty?

Big raft of rushes keeps the stock from poaching though, as a positive.

Salt, yes that might be a decent idea

 

[bitwrx]

Been measuring our rainfall .
We've had 15 inches (375mm) in the last 4 weeks. ?
The ground really can't take much more. Cows are in full time and the heifers are moving over their deferred grass bit quicker than I had hoped
View attachment 843716

Keep it going. The good thing about daily moves is a daily chance to try something new, or update your plan. Rather than just wait till the whole thing is a mudbath.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

i might...Just listening or helping the discussion?

In the first one we could type questions for answer but weren't allowed to speak (as there were too many attending).

Niels is good (have chatted to him at Groundswell) so should be worth it.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

no , no idea how much rain,suffice to say its wetter than last year at the same time.
Funnily enough got a bit interested to know, so I'm going to start recording,

,

I keep forgetting to write the tally down, so I've taken to taking a picture of the rain guage now, then when I am having a catchup at least I have a date to go by.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Think you're going to have to expand a little on "your grazing paradigm" and how
you changed it to alter your water cycle to dry the ground up . . . please

Farm for it - what most people do for money, just do it for your water cycle instead.
Most people around here concentrate on production and profit, it's why they have limited success, they look at the details too often and not the bigger picture - turning sunshine and water into produce.
Hence why they focus on "which breed" and "what fertiliser" while I simply focus on the water (now, I was just like them once) and set us up as a water storage unit.

I hope that makes no sense, it didn't to me for many years, but the more you focus on the water cycle, the more money drips out of the farm

 

[onesiedale]

Farm for it - what most people do for money, just do it for your water cycle instead.
Most people around here concentrate on production and profit, it's why they have limited success, they look at the details too often and not the bigger picture - turning sunshine and water into produce.
Hence why they focus on "which breed" and "what fertiliser" while I simply focus on the water (now, I was just like them once) and set us up as a water storage unit.

I hope that makes no sense, it didn't to me for many years, but the more you focus on the water cycle, the more money drips out of the farm

mmmm. Going to have to read that a few times,
I think I'm beginning to understand your mindset.
. . . and go back to chapter 12. Savory's HM book ???

 

[Gulli]

In the first one we could type questions for answer but weren't allowed to speak (as there were too many attending).

Niels is good (have chatted to him at Groundswell) so should be worth it.

If you stick a reminder up a bit closer to the date then I'll try and join.

As an unrelated side note ahdb have been running some good webinars recently

 

[Kiwi Pete]

mmmm. Going to have to read that a few times,
I think I'm beginning to understand your mindset.
. . . and go back to chapter 12. Savory's HM book ???

You're well on your way, persevere and you'll soon see.
It won't necessarily make your land drier; but 'more use when it's wet', is entirely feasible

They ate the paddock in the bottom photo while I was at work, in at around 7.30 am, and out around 5 pm.
"The Carbon Sponge" ala Walter Jehne gets much more technical than I can, but basically the most effective thing you can do is increase your below-ground biomass & litter/residue, and use all the stocking pressure you can to graze as quickly as possible

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Ah right. That's a new one on me! Spreading that over the rushes will make them more palatable? I think I'm correct to say that rushes like acidic soil, so would help with that as well?

Soil acidity is an interesting topic all of its own, but in a nutshell your soil becomes acid when there is a surplus of free H+ ions in the soil solution - this is actually how a pH is calculated/measured

If you lime in sufficient quantity then the carbonate in the lime gives these stray hydrogens something to hang onto, which is exactly like what happens when your soil fungi polymerise simple Carbons into humus - it gives all the strays a framework to bond with, reducing leaching and drying out, to an extent.
It's much the same mechanically as how soap attaches to dirt on your hands, but in reverse - the little bits (H+) attach to the Carbon latticework and thus the pH becomes more neutral - it's very difficult to have a fantastic water cycle while using chemical warfare, especially that "harmless" antifungal antimicrobial herbicide we shall not name