"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Farmer Roy]

As @Farmer Roy said, that sounds just like this guy:

That video

 

[Gulli]

Yes, it's comparable to £1 per week in winter, and about 90p now.
It's a win-win if done well, we've put 7 sheep in the hole in 3 years and 2 were ours, the thing is we do an excellent job and they are an excellent tool; not only in terms of chipping away at the mortgage but also for extra animal impact, as most of our pasture productivity relies on "THE MOB" and not inputs

A few points, you spend the same amount of time electric fencing with one wire or 3, so we aim to get them accustomed to one ASAP and then 3x the moves are possible; have to get that migration happening or they're "just something to eat the grass" IYSWIM?
And, relationships, as mentioned above.. once you can eliminate that pesky commissioned stock agent and work on trust/honesty/communication, it gets better and better.
We've got all the hoggets we need from 2 great people, both of them know how we roll "they don't need drenched, you need to drench them" so it works great.

We get the benefit of sheep without the costView attachment 846973

When you run them behind a single wire what height do you set the wire at?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

When you run them behind a single wire what height do you set the wire at?

About my knee? I'm not tall.
My plastic stakes have ten places to put wires and it's usually the 6th one up, it's just a guide that bites not an absolute 'wall'
If you need that many wires then you're either teaching skippy calves or being too hard on your grass and stock, the main reason I use electricity is to stop things chewing the poly, that's a good habit to break. Sometimes I use more, 3 or even 4 to keep new lambs with their mums

It doesn't always hold them but if you give any fencing f#ckers a good run around then they soon catch on to the idea that they stay as a mob

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Sometimes 3 wires is simply two too many.

 

[Gulli]

About my knee? I'm not tall.
My plastic stakes have ten places to put wires and it's usually the 6th one up, it's just a guide that bites not an absolute 'wall'
If you need that many wires then you're either teaching skippy calves or being too hard on your grass and stock, the main reason I use electricity is to stop things chewing the poly, that's a good habit to break. Sometimes I use more, 3 or even 4 to keep new lambs with their mums

It doesn't always hold them but if you give any fencing f#ckers a good run around then they soon catch on to the idea that they stay as a mob

Cattle are fine on the whole, happily stay behind a wire.
My sheep are dickheads though, probably because I'm a bit hard on them at times but will jump 2 wires or just walk through it. Put a line of stakes up while im splitting a field and I cant drive the buggers through them with no wire though

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Cattle are fine on the whole, happily stay behind a wire.
My sheep are dickheads though, probably because I'm a bit hard on them at times but will jump 2 wires or just walk through it. Put a line of stakes up while im splitting a field and I cant drive the buggers through them with no wire though

Yeah, that's why "it depends"
Winter, I use two or 3 as it's a restricted diet/controlled starvation thing unfortunately.
Late summer dry hasn't given us much of a pasture recovery (and my management, of course) but at this time of year a bit of bale twine is probably going to keep my mob of 650 something in, there is no dietary restriction other than time and competitors.

I'll maybe roll a track thru this with the quad, dragging the portable trough through lets them see the wire better so they don't just brush under it

 

[ShooTa]

yep a tyre on the back will help make a line

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Cattle are fine on the whole, happily stay behind a wire.
My sheep are dickheads though, probably because I'm a bit hard on them at times but will jump 2 wires or just walk through it. Put a line of stakes up while im splitting a field and I cant drive the buggers through them with no wire though

I know this feeling well.
This time of year I can keep them behind 2 wires til the paddock turns to mud. Last lambing time they stayed behind 1 wire, but as summer progressed I couldn't keep them behind 4 wires?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I don't want to sound too clever here, but there is a reason for this.... it was maybe time for them to move, before you shifted them

 

[Poorbuthappy]

I don't want to sound too clever here, but there is a reason for this.... it was maybe time for them to move, before you shifted them

I think I said at the time, my most frustrating day was putting them into a fresh paddock and they went straight across and through the fence the other side before I'd shut the gate.

Trouble is it becomes a habit.
Yet it's not an issue with the same sheep at this time of year.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

I'd like to increase the length of my rotations, but that will largely require further subdivision, which is what I'm struggling with.
Intend to try and improve fence power next season- improving earthing and reduce overgrowth is the plan. Try and stop the habit developing. But I do hear you on the quicker moves.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I'd like to increase the length of my rotations, but that will largely require further subdivision, which is what I'm struggling with.
Intend to try and improve fence power next season- improving earthing and reduce overgrowth is the plan. Try and stop the habit developing. But I do hear you on the quicker moves.

The thing is, "domesticated" livestock are like people today, they have absolutely no reason to work as one, that instinct has been lost (until there is chaos)
From an outsiders POV, the UK is a prime example of this: "every bugger for themselves" until war breaks out and suddenly there's unity.
War's over, everyone forgets the need to be a tribe and goes back to doing what suits, which mainly consists of splitting off into groups and playing games.

This is what you have in your sheep, no pressure, or at least not enough pressure often enough to reboot that "siege mentality" or "herd instinct" that is actually in there somewhere. They roost at the highest point to prove that they do actually know something's out there, but by day they are off to Barbados, and the Corbyn voters are off thru the fence because THEY AREN'T A TEAM.

So you need to mess with them, not by building a wall but by altering their behaviour.
Keep their fluffy little heads full of confusion, and grass. Keep them all pulling in the same direction (grass again) and sometimes you can even bounce them on again before 6 have lifted their heads - that really screws their minds up

It's when they're idle, that's the problem. When tasked, they revert to "herd".

 

[Henarar]

fencing works better in the winter when the ground is soft and wet their feet sink in and they get more shock

 

[onesiedale]

As @Farmer Roy said, that sounds just like this guy:

Actually it was a Welsh speaking farmer by the name of Gerald Miles who was talking on a Farmerama podcast about black oats amongst other things.

 

[Bury the Trash]

fencing works better in the winter when the ground is soft and wet their feet sink in and they get more shock

That's all very well but fencinb needs to be effective all year round dry or humid.
Were On farm boundaries atm as thats where the priority always is to spend money.
Dealing with rotten stakes replacement ?

 

[Crofter64]

It is, after you begin doing it you can see the "odd" side of keeping a moderate headage year round, and managing their feed with machines

Each to their own, the reasons have been well and truly covered!
But other people's money and stock are great things IMVHO

I’ve taken a small leaf out of your book and for starters am keeping 2 dairy heifers for a neighbour. Payment is in hay. The plan is to start keeping more of his animals and fewer of my own.

 

[Gulli]

I know this feeling well.
This time of year I can keep them behind 2 wires til the paddock turns to mud. Last lambing time they stayed behind 1 wire, but as summer progressed I couldn't keep them behind 4 wires?

My lambs are a bigger problem than the ewes.
It's probably down to grass availability here though I think, and once they figure out they can get through a fence then not much will stop them. The wet weather hasn't helped much recently either as they muddy the grass and then scoot off to the next bit before I get the chance to move them, have been mixing up grazing area sizes so at least they dont all sprint to the fence whenever I turn up now.
Theres one little runty thing that doesnt seem to feel any pain and squeezes under any fence I put up which isnt helping matters!

 

[Woolless]

How many tonnes of stock do you have on how much area?
Length of grass can be quite misleading as a measure, but if you know your stock weights roughly and numbers then you can begin a calculation; eg "I have 24 tonnes of sheep" can then be turned into "I need to make 500-700kg of DM available per 24 hours" if you catch my drift?

Count on zero growth, then you won't be disappointed when you have a little bit of growth, as opposed to doing sums based on growth you may not get; and base your grazing on the landscape not the grass itself.

As you'll know well: sheep don't graze like cows graze, where cattle may do better going around twice or 3x I would be more in favour of ramping up stocking density much higher and really making them work - clean the pastures out while the ground can take 50,000kg LWT/ha and these will be nice spring-lambing pastures with much higher protein content for milk production and to avoid metabolic issues?
Grass going forward won't lose quality, but it will lose vigour if you deplete the root, that's the fine line we've tread by AWG sheep, eg not much sun to catch and thus it's easy to stall the biological function of cool soils by repetitive grazings.

Our learning has shown that it would be better for us to use much higher covers and maintain much higher SD to manage litter better, and thus the water cycle and biological activity is enhanced over the wet season.
Also it's shown us that if you're going to feed bales, do it at the beginning of winter instead of at the end, while you have some cover to drive on (only if you need to) rather than copy the neighbour's mud recipe.

My sheep will end up on a sacrifice field here on haylage once the paddocks are grazed out, so not too bothered about regrowth for winter grazing (if I got any), more about what sets up the place for next spring. There's a bit of dead stuff about. Best to take it down hard (1000-1200kgdm) and freshen it up?

 

[ShooTa]

My lambs are a bigger problem than the ewes.
It's probably down to grass availability here though I think, and once they figure out they can get through a fence then not much will stop them. The wet weather hasn't helped much recently either as they muddy the grass and then scoot off to the next bit before I get the chance to move them, have been mixing up grazing area sizes so at least they dont all sprint to the fence whenever I turn up now.
Theres one little runty thing that doesnt seem to feel any pain and squeezes under any fence I put up which isnt helping matters!

as certain grazers say - theres time to remove that from you flock.

@Woolless ask yourself will it have enough leaf/solar panel on it in the spring?

 

[Woolless]

as certain grazers say - theres time to remove that from you flock.

@Woolless ask yourself will it have enough leaf/solar panel on it in the spring?

Yes, that's what I'm wondering. It's what I usually do, rotate them round post-tupping and clear up. This year I've got a big heap of bales, thinking about leaving it a little longer with the hope that I get some earlier growth. Having said that, we had to lamb a week earlier than normal last year (started late March) and we had enough grass when the ewes went on to their lambing fields a week beforehand.