"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Guleesh

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Isle of Skye
Things came to a head here yesterday. My infrastructure issues finally broke the camels back. I have, for the time being gone back to set stocking.

We have a significant number of stone walls which have to be included in paddock making. Breaking my hand in Feb put me too far behind in rebuilding them. Therefore I have run out of paddocks - this doesn't sound rational if you aren't familiar with the terrain.

Another issue was moving ewes and young lambs from one paddock to another. The plan was the long walls would serve as lanes, with 2.5 foot pieces of rebar drilled in and screw on connectors with polywire. Within the lanes I would make front and back fences to form the paddocks and take power from the lane walls. Not having gate gates has also proven to be a mistake. The flock didn't know where was "safe" to cross from one paddock to another. This results in the ewes running through the gap leaving confused lambs bawling behind. I tried leaving a paddock open behind them for a day so they could remob. The problem with this is it left me desperately short of temporary step in posts, I ordered another two hundred in early may and due to courier cock ups they never arrived. Yet another issue is the sheer number of step in posts required to deal with the up, down, boulder, up, wall, down, up type terrain to be able stop sheep from going under or over a fence.

So, the result is a mess. Ewes & lambs overgrazing paddocks due to me not being able to keep paddocks built ahead of them. This neither benefits the land, the animals, or myself.

Though I do believe the delay may cost me the rest of this year, it has been a worthwhile experience. I still firmly believe in HPG, and I'm as eager as ever to get going. The reality of my infrastructure deficit runs contrary to one of the most important parts of my holistic context, to generate more free time to spend with my family or pursuing education. 8 hours a day rebuilding walls like a convict will do that ?

I am delayed, not defeated ?

Glad you're not defeated, I sympathise with your problems as many fields here don't exactly lend themselves to paddocks and electric fences, you have to just make the most of what youve got. It is a nightmare trying to move young lambs, I actually don't mind the electric fence chaos as it's 100 times easier than road moves, when the ewes have legged it 200m into the next gateway and 50 deafeningly noisy lambs decide their mum's still in the field we just came out of, and they can make a run for it- that's when I normally think back with fond memories of set stocking.

Don't give up on the year, it's still early, and your lambs will be more sensible in a few weeks. I think I'd still be trying to rotate something, would only need a couple good runs of fence even if just fortnightly moves it's better then nothing?
 

tinsheet

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
West Somerset
Second pass on this field 30 day turnaround growing like weeds even in current climate,
DSCN2993.JPG
DSCN2982.JPG

Leaving behind this at 24 hrs moves, could leave it to 48 hr moves but as it so dry at the moment i feel its important to keep the soil well covered? thats my feeling anyway.
DSCN2988.JPG
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
Creeping thistle is very resiliant to being rolled in my experience, only takes a few days to pick itself up again, i think i'd top it.
I don't think you can beat creeping thistle with a topper even if you go low, it just gets pee'd off and sends up more creeping thistles, plus if you take the grass down low in this weather you feck that as well
I would leave it, in fact I have some like that and have left it, will take the heads off afor they seed
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I don't think you can beat creeping thistle with a topper even if you go low, it just gets pee'd off and sends up more creeping thistles, plus if you take the grass down low in this weather you feck that as well
I would leave it, in fact I have some like that and have left it, will take the heads off afor they seed
The only way to truly "beat" them is to accept them for what they are... accept that you're maybe managing for weeds better than grasses.
And park the mower.

When your grass is as good at grassing as the thistle is at thistling, then you have done bloody well with your management as you've altered the conditions to suit the growth of the grass better than anything else.
 

Guleesh

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Isle of Skye
I don't think you can beat creeping thistle with a topper even if you go low, it just gets pee'd off and sends up more creeping thistles, plus if you take the grass down low in this weather you feck that as well
I would leave it, in fact I have some like that and have left it, will take the heads off afor they seed

Almost eradicated it from some areas here, just cutting or pulling the big ones, Admittedly It took a few years of persistent cutting- never quite letting them flower, Since letting the grass grow longer though I find only the largest thistles can compete and I don't mind an odd hour or two pulling them, Back to the idea that there's no point removing weeds if there's nothing better to replace them with.
 

Guleesh

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Isle of Skye
The only way to truly "beat" them is to accept them for what they are... accept that you're maybe managing for weeds better than grasses.
And park the mower.

When your grass is as good at grassing as the thistle is at thistling, then you have done bloody well with your management as you've altered the conditions to suit the growth of the grass better than anything else.
exactly this
 

Guleesh

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Isle of Skye
Interestingly I remember when there was no creeping thistle here at all, consensus in this place was that it came in as seed with bought in hay. Another good reason to just grow your own feed rather than buying it in.
 

tinsheet

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
West Somerset
bloody good that, whats in there ?
Organic Mob Grazing Herbal Grass Seed Mix (Acre Pack)

12.50% PERUN Festulolium
20.00% ROMARK Perennial Ryegrass Late Dip
7.50% ORG RAGNER Timothy
10.00% ORG SWANTE Cocksfoot
12.50% ORG ROZETA Red Clover
5.00% ALICE White Clover
2.50% LIFLEX White Clover
4.00% ORG MAGA Lucerne
16.00% ORG Common Vetch
2.50% TONIC Plantain
2.50% Burnet
2.50% Sheep’s Parsley
0.50% Yarrow
2.00% CHOICE Chicory
100% (12.50 kg per acre)

It's some poor hill ground next door to me I took on 3 years ago, grew bugger all, plough it limed it loads a dung then in to kale then in to this mix, very pleased with it. Especially as everything's drying up so fast.
 
Last edited:

Whitewalker

Member
The only way to truly "beat" them is to accept them for what they are... accept that you're maybe managing for weeds better than grasses.
And park the mower.

When your grass is as good at grassing as the thistle is at thistling, then you have done bloody well with your management as you've altered the conditions to suit the growth of the grass better than anything else.
Our battle is docks and after listening to stuff it made me realise I’m actually a really efficient dock grower . I need to learn how to change conditions.
It will prompt it to rapidly flower and seed, I understand the best time to cut is once it had already put its energy reserve into making the flowers. You've got to think about how best to starve the root system if you want rid of it. trimming the green tops wont set it back at all.

@Guleesh this is another thing to add to the artillery.
 

Guleesh

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Isle of Skye
All this thistle talk has really got me thinking... Creeping thistle still exists here but really ceased to be the big problem I used to see it as when I was managing the grass akin to how you manage a lawn. It really was as simple as just altering grazing timings to try and grow more of what we do want rather than wasting time and effort trying to destroy the stuff we don't. I did manage to clear some thistles in the past but at what cost to everything else trying to grow, I don't know. The fact of the matter is that apart from looking unsightly, they're actually pretty harmless, in fact they probably did a lot of good.

Creeping thistle is a plant that can survive in heavily over-grazed pastures, it puts huge root systems out that break up and loosen compacted ground and then rots down to nothing in the autumn, providing some much needed feed for the soil. Indeed I should leave them well alone, as an indicator of the health of the place, and insurance for the soil health after I'm gone- should the ones coming after me revert to set-stocked overgrazing.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
Before we had toppers and went topping it was called skimming and done with an old fingerbar mower, we had a mid mount one on a TE20 I can just about remember it.
Dad would say "better a few weeds than go skimming of a dry time or you won't have anything" then send us out with a hook to cut just the thistles and not the grass, those really tall ones you had to watch they didn't fall on you when you weren't very tall, still got the slasher hook he gave me after fitting a handle he had cut up in the woods, its getting a bit worm eaten now though
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
All this thistle talk has really got me thinking... Creeping thistle still exists here but really ceased to be the big problem I used to see it as when I was managing the grass akin to how you manage a lawn. It really was as simple as just altering grazing timings to try and grow more of what we do want rather than wasting time and effort trying to destroy the stuff we don't. I did manage to clear some thistles in the past but at what cost to everything else trying to grow, I don't know. The fact of the matter is that apart from looking unsightly, they're actually pretty harmless, in fact they probably did a lot of good.

Creeping thistle is a plant that can survive in heavily over-grazed pastures, it puts huge root systems out that break up and loosen compacted ground and then rots down to nothing in the autumn, providing some much needed feed for the soil. Indeed I should leave them well alone, as an indicator of the health of the place, and insurance for the soil health after I'm gone- should the ones coming after me revert to set-stocked overgrazing.
Youre beginning to sound a lot like @Kiwi Pete ?
 

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
All this thistle talk has really got me thinking... Creeping thistle still exists here but really ceased to be the big problem I used to see it as when I was managing the grass akin to how you manage a lawn. It really was as simple as just altering grazing timings to try and grow more of what we do want rather than wasting time and effort trying to destroy the stuff we don't. I did manage to clear some thistles in the past but at what cost to everything else trying to grow, I don't know. The fact of the matter is that apart from looking unsightly, they're actually pretty harmless, in fact they probably did a lot of good.

Creeping thistle is a plant that can survive in heavily over-grazed pastures, it puts huge root systems out that break up and loosen compacted ground and then rots down to nothing in the autumn, providing some much needed feed for the soil. Indeed I should leave them well alone, as an indicator of the health of the place, and insurance for the soil health after I'm gone- should the ones coming after me revert to set-stocked overgrazing.
You’re spot on. Thistles (and weeds in general) aren’t a problem. They are a symptom of a problem. They’re nature’s way of trying to heal something you’ve done to damage the environment. Poaching, over-grazing, too much N, etc etc. If we can learn to read the signs then we can start to make fewer (or different....) mistakes.

Creeping thistles are a great example, as are docks. I’ve found exactly the same as you @Guleesh, once I get the management of the pasture right the ‘weeds’ become less and less of a problem. Plus the cattle eat the tips of the thistles (including the flowers) and will strip a dock bare, so transferring those nutrients from deeper in the soil into the surface. It’s a win-win.
 

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