"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Humble Village Farmer]

Molasses would suffice, humic products or solid humates would be the ticket? Sugar is just a little too..... sugar-like IMO

Yes but sugar is what the roots pump out

 

[Rob Garrett]

Yes but sugar is what the roots pump out

Would it be the same sort of sugar though? Guessing the sugar's in molasses are derived from the intensive heat process (boiling raw sugar cane & water) in the sugar crystal making process. Sugar's from plant's are derived from photosynthesis.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

That's my thoughts as well, Rob. If simple sugars were enough of a buffer to take the sting out of a big dollop of soluble N then this conversation wouldn't be 'being had'
My feeling is that you need a more stable C source to do that job and if you were using 50 units of N then you'd need 500 units of C to counter it, as that's what it would burn through. That's a lot of molasses

Makes me happy to be an inefficient producer

 

[Sheila Cooke]

In September we have two new courses starting:

HOLISTIC PLANNED GRAZING
Online With Instructor
Wednesdays, 9 September -- 28 October 2020, 6:30 - 9:00 PM, UK

HOLISTIC MANAGEMENT FUNDAMENTALS
Online Course With Instructor
Sundays, 20 September -- 8 November 2020, 6:30 - 9:30 PM, UK

A recent graduate wrote:

I just wanted to thank you for the last 7 months of online courses. I know the course back in October was the start of the journey and when that finished, I knew I would be embarking on something new, but I never thought how much it would change me and my business, especially in such a short period of time. Every aspect of the course has had a huge benefit. Financial decisions are now planned out in more detail, my planned grazing is now in full swing and the way I am reading the land has changed the whole way the farm is run.

If you would like to book time with me to ask about the training, please use this link.

 

[Rob Garrett]

That's my thoughts as well, Rob. If simple sugars were enough of a buffer to take the sting out of a big dollop of soluble N then this conversation wouldn't be 'being had'
My feeling is that you need a more stable C source to do that job [emoji848] and if you were using 50 units of N then you'd need 500 units of C to counter it, as that's what it would burn through. That's a lot of molasses

Makes me happy to be an inefficient producer

You would think "natural" N from legumes would be kinder on soil as volume of secretion is progressive with plant/crop growth.

Carbon buffer for granular N: charcoal fines? Mixed in spreader hopper as fert. goes in. May need to give that a bit more thought!

 

[awkward]

Molasses would suffice, humic products or solid humates would be the ticket? Sugar is just a little too..... sugar-like IMO

Maybe a whey powder

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

I suppose sugar from photosynthesis is slow release or when it's really going some because it's hot, the whole biome is on full throttle so it balances itself out. Surely all sugar is plant based though?

 

[awkward]

Legumes alone are very destructive to the soil. When trying to take a pan to do a water infiltration test, we had to use a sawzall to try and cut the soil. This was alfalfa under pivot too! No soil structure. The soil was like a rock and I believe we could have played baseball with it and not broke the clods up.

When I hear of people planting straight legumes ahead of corn Or planting winter kill grass species with over wintering legumes, I think of how much less water infiltration and water holding capacity those soils will have. Legumes are carbon greedy. Some clovers and vetch have great fibrous root systems that can make the soil mellow in the top inch or two but they still drastically reduce soils ability to feed microbes the carbon that is needed. Legumes require so much carbon to make a unit of nitrogen. They also leak out nitrogenous compounds that cause microbes in the soil starve for carbon which makes them begin consuming soil aggregates and collapses the soil profile.

This happens when too much nitrogen is applied at once. The soil has a 10:1 nitrogen to sulfur ratio and a 10:1 carbon to nitrogen ratio. This is why I recommend a carbon source applied with nitrogen applications and for nitrogen applications to be applied with sulfur as well at the same ratio as the soil is naturally.

** cut & pasted from FaceBook

Sorry I've been flat stick this week gone and not really got around to answering @Rob Garrett's question about the F:B ratio (and this ties in with the C:N ratio of what the soil biome is fed)

A good bit of clover is a good thing, sure, but you want plenty of C to balance it out.
Even if it's just "filler" or "weed grasses" it will still be useful to have it
Just as buttercups are better than bare soil and a bunch of docks are better than the chicory that didn't grow yet - the present is all we have

Legumes alone are very destructive to the soil. When trying to take a pan to do a water infiltration test, we had to use a sawzall to try and cut the soil. This was alfalfa under pivot too! No soil structure. The soil was like a rock and I believe we could have played baseball with it and not broke the clods up.

When I hear of people planting straight legumes ahead of corn Or planting winter kill grass species with over wintering legumes, I think of how much less water infiltration and water holding capacity those soils will have. Legumes are carbon greedy. Some clovers and vetch have great fibrous root systems that can make the soil mellow in the top inch or two but they still drastically reduce soils ability to feed microbes the carbon that is needed. Legumes require so much carbon to make a unit of nitrogen. They also leak out nitrogenous compounds that cause microbes in the soil starve for carbon which makes them begin consuming soil aggregates and collapses the soil profile.

This happens when too much nitrogen is applied at once. The soil has a 10:1 nitrogen to sulfur ratio and a 10:1 carbon to nitrogen ratio. This is why I recommend a carbon source applied with nitrogen applications and for nitrogen applications to be applied with sulfur as well at the same ratio as the soil is naturally.

** cut & pasted from FaceBook

Sorry I've been flat stick this week gone and not really got around to answering @Rob Garrett's question about the F:B ratio (and this ties in with the C:N ratio of what the soil biome is fed)

A good bit of clover is a good thing, sure, but you want plenty of C to balance it out.
Even if it's just "filler" or "weed grasses" it will still be useful to have it
Just as buttercups are better than bare soil and a bunch of docks are better than the chicory that didn't grow yet - the present is all we have

I've been trying to post a video of Hugh Lovel explaining soil carbon calcium ratios which may help but not succeeding,will try later.

Unfortunately the news has of Hugh suffering a severe stroke has also come my way yesterday and is expected to not survive

 

[Fenwick]

Thanks. Enjoyed that.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I suppose sugar from photosynthesis is slow release or when it's really going some because it's hot, the whole biome is on full throttle so it balances itself out. Surely all sugar is plant based though?

Yes, but not all carbohydrates are simple sugars. Something like cellulose is much more stable and would have less of an acidifying effect as a result?

Quite an interesting one to ponder, because possibly the easiest way to cut down your root exudate levels is to put fertiliser on!
And that's a substantial point, when you consider the exudates might be in the vicinity of 15T/ha in our type of conditions with perennials, you could effectively sequester 25T C/ha/year every year

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Thanks. Enjoyed that.

Me too, it just seemed very appropriate for 'here'

It reminded me of the story about the wolves changing the river; everything we "do" involving nature tends towards compounding and cascading effects...

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Just been doing some "reseeding" on an area that's never really recovered from grassgrub attack 4-5 years ago. What a mess but hopefully we get a good strike

bit cheaper doing it this way so I'm not too concerned if it fails/feeds the birds

 

[Fenwick]

Just been doing some "reseeding" on an area that's never really recovered from grassgrub attack 4-5 years ago. What a mess but hopefully we get a good strikeView attachment 903556
bit cheaper doing it this way so I'm not too concerned if it fails/feeds the birds

Watching with intérest. Whats was thé stocking densité and for how long. How much précipitation ? Broadcast? Keep us updated.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Watching with intérest. Whats was thé stocking densité and for how long. How much précipitation ? Broadcast? Keep us updated.

We had about 115mm of overnight rain (enough!!) and I put them on about ⅛ha overnight. I saw it coming on the rain map and broadcast it on - have a little lawn fert spinner - just clover and plantain seed, may give it a pass with the cambridge roller which is parked up about 50 metres away once they've grazed this block.
Maybe not, will see how I go for time as I'm averaging about 14 hours per day at work (my wife supplies the pictures as I do it all in the darkness)

 

[Karliboy]

Weather has been atrocious here the last couple off days and it’s getting very wet under foot to the point I dare not go into the cells again just yet, anyway cows brought themselves down of the hill so decided to give them a bale of hay which they ran inside for and are demolishing.
( you can tell when there a bit sick of the rain and wet grass) it should also make it a tad easier for splitting a cow and twin bull calf’s off ready for market tomorrow as they know there’s something good in the shed to come back in for .

Top field is looking much improved after 45 days. Opted to not bother with fert in the end.

I think the 12 months rest it had did it no favours. It let the rush get ahead and the grass I feel lost it’s vigour for the want to get up and grow.
It’s definitely going to get grazed again before this year is out and top off the rush again.

 

[Crofter64]

We had about 115mm of overnight rain (enough!!) and I put them on about ⅛ha overnight. I saw it coming on the rain map and broadcast it on - have a little lawn fert spinner - just clover and plantain seed, may give it a pass with the cambridge roller which is parked up about 50 metres away once they've grazed this block.
Maybe not, will see how I go for time as I'm averaging about 14 hours per day at work (my wife supplies the pictures as I do it all in the darkness)

Thanks to Sarah for the photos. They‘ re key.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

We had about 115mm of overnight rain (enough!!) and I put them on about ⅛ha overnight. I saw it coming on the rain map and broadcast it on - have a little lawn fert spinner - just clover and plantain seed, may give it a pass with the cambridge roller which is parked up about 50 metres away once they've grazed this block.
Maybe not, will see how I go for time as I'm averaging about 14 hours per day at work (my wife supplies the pictures as I do it all in the darkness)

Would the sheep mob turned in for an hour have done the Cambridge roller job? Presuming not already germinated?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Would the sheep mob turned in for an hour have done the Cambridge roller job? Presuming not already germinated?

Yes, they would do the job admirably I'd think. Again, just a time thing, it would take as long to fence the area off as it would to rub out the roughness with a roller - the main thing is obviously "how soft is it"

At the moment it is very very wet, poured down again all night, even their overnight break is almost looking like too much pressure or not enough cover. Difficult to know how much to open them up at this point in spring; do we 'sacrifice it' and put seed on a larger area, or do we hope for warmth and more growth?

 

[Fenwick]

We had about 115mm of overnight rain (enough!!) and I put them on about ⅛ha overnight. I saw it coming on the rain map and broadcast it on - have a little lawn fert spinner - just clover and plantain seed, may give it a pass with the cambridge roller which is parked up about 50 metres away once they've grazed this block.
Maybe not, will see how I go for time as I'm averaging about 14 hours per day at work (my wife supplies the pictures as I do it all in the darkness)

How many lwu in that group?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

How many lwu in that group?

There are 80 head, ranging from 270kg up to 440kg.
Last weigh, the total mob weight was around 26,800kg, will be around 27,500 now I would think. So about 55 x 500kg cattle equiv. on 80 sets of feet