"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Karliboy]

wick ?
they always make a better photo after a few days

wick.
up and about. Fast. Doesn’t hang about.
probably a northern term.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

@Kiwi Pete just wondering how the non-selective grazing is going? I've been watching a Jim Elizondo video tonight. He reckons it's hard to do properly without four moves per day. That's going to be a struggle for me. Be interesting to hear how you manage it.

Just a compromise; I'm unable to really push it while we have sheep+lambs (and young calves) in the mob as I don't want them going backwards. I think they would stall on OAD shifting

 

[Fenwick]

@Kiwi Pete just wondering how the non-selective grazing is going? I've been watching a Jim Elizondo video tonight. He reckons it's hard to do properly without four moves per day. That's going to be a struggle for me. Be interesting to hear how you manage it.

Had this conversation with Jim on FB. He's says 4 moves a day is optimal, but 1 move a day acceptable. I have tried total grazing with 3 moves a day, i think it was sub optimal.

I physically can't bé thérè to move thèm four times a day. So if i insist on doing so some kind of automation will bé needed.

 

[Woolless]

Had this conversation with Jim on FB. He's says 4 moves a day is optimal, but 1 move a day acceptable. I have tried total grazing with 3 moves a day, i think it was sub optimal.

I physically can't bé thérè to move thèm four times a day. So if i insist on doing so some kind of automation will bé needed.

Ah, straight from the horse's mouth! It's going to be real trial and error here early on. But you can only do what you can do. I'll try OAD shifts and dabble with more moves when I have time.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Ah, straight from the horse's mouth! It's going to be real trial and error here early on. But you can only do what you can do. I'll try OAD shifts and dabble with more moves when I have time.

It's good fun just playing around with it as @Fenwick has noted, you do need to watch your stock a lot more closely than when they're spoilt.

I notice they begin to change (behaviour, grazing habits) once the feed has gone and they begin picking at the litter, it's time to go.
However it does not create bare soil if done right, thus it probably suits us quite well because we've all been looking closely at these sorts of things for a while?
(Looking at animal behaviour, gutfill, at what's on the surface of the soil between the plants etc.. and not just measuring the height of the plants)

It's hard to keep cocksfoot down - this is only a couple of days behind the mob but it's already beginning to bounce

 

[Woolless]

It's good fun just playing around with it as @Fenwick has noted, you do need to watch your stock a lot more closely than when they're spoilt.

I notice they begin to change (behaviour, grazing habits) once the feed has gone and they begin picking at the litter, it's time to go.
However it does not create bare soil if done right, thus it probably suits us quite well because we've all been looking closely at these sorts of things for a while?
(Looking at animal behaviour, gutfill, at what's on the surface of the soil between the plants etc.. and not just measuring the height of the plants)View attachment 934135View attachment 934136
It's hard to keep cocksfoot down - this is only a couple of days behind the mob but it's already beginning to bounceView attachment 934137

Yes, a big thing that I've picked up from my recent reading/viewing is assessing rumen fill and dung consistency. If they look full and the dung is alright, then they're alright! A really useful technique.

 

[Bowland Bob]

Had this conversation with Jim on FB. He's says 4 moves a day is optimal, but 1 move a day acceptable. I have tried total grazing with 3 moves a day, i think it was sub optimal.

I physically can't bé thérè to move thèm four times a day. So if i insist on doing so some kind of automation will bé needed.

Do I recall a Spanish firm doing automated pogo style sticks? What are the option's for automation, pogo sticks and Gallagher batt latch?

 

[som farmer]

our nutritionist includes dung consistency in calculating the required rationing, there is a lot to learn, from comparing what goes in, to what comes out. That presumably was the main way, with looks, on rationing 100 yrs ago. There is no better way of judgeing the needs of stock, than by observing their actions. One of the things i have noticed, when following 'u tube', and regentative grazing, is by moving stock, when not hungry, is they immediately spread out and start grazing, thus consuming more grass than they would have, bigger intake, bigger gain. That is the thinking behind greg judy's system, though he has gone one step further, and bred the cattle specifically to do that, body capable of holding a big gut. Body depth is one of my 'must' haves, in choosing dairy sires, and while they have reduced stature, and increased chest width, body depth is not yet there. The other side of the coin, advocates tight grazing, and long rest period, so which system is the best one ? Personally, i think by grazing a paddock tight, and the longer rest, is probably very good at improving the type and yield, of the grasses in that paddock, and yet have found good results by leaving longer residuals, perhaps we should mimic grazing cattle, and just select the best bits, of all systems. Back to sh1t, it's a very useful tool, to judge what your grass is producing, lush green grass =lush green sh1t, and the opposite applies, as a dairy farmer, we are lucky enough, to have 2 instant measurements, of the field/grass, sh1t and the bulk tank, also the twice a day moving, gives us the chance to balance 2 types of grass.

 

[Samcowman]

Doing a bit of planning for next seasons grazing and have this one blooody awkward field in the block.
Working on a provisional 25 day round on a new herbal ley with daily shifts of 0.4ha.

I am thinking 3 paddocks on the left and 5 on the right with a semi permanent fence up the line where the line is. They would come in stage left just below the house working north then switch across the top to the right hand side and work south which they exit stage right.
The other paddocks are easy rectangles.
Does anyone else have a better idea?

 

[DanM]

It's good fun just playing around with it as @Fenwick has noted, you do need to watch your stock a lot more closely than when they're spoilt.

I notice they begin to change (behaviour, grazing habits) once the feed has gone and they begin picking at the litter, it's time to go.
However it does not create bare soil if done right, thus it probably suits us quite well because we've all been looking closely at these sorts of things for a while?
(Looking at animal behaviour, gutfill, at what's on the surface of the soil between the plants etc.. and not just measuring the height of the plants)View attachment 934135View attachment 934136
It's hard to keep cocksfoot down - this is only a couple of days behind the mob but it's already beginning to bounceView attachment 934137

Hi Pete. With this revised grazing technique; do you not feel worms will become an issue more for the sheep. Previously grazing just the tops you were avoiding the danger zone?

 

[som farmer]

Doing a bit of planning for next seasons grazing and have this one blooody awkward field in the block.
Working on a provisional 25 day round on a new herbal ley with daily shifts of 0.4ha. View attachment 934274
I am thinking 3 paddocks on the left and 5 on the right with a semi permanent fence up the line where the line is. They would come in stage left just below the house working north then switch across the top to the right hand side and work south which they exit stage right.
The other paddocks are easy rectangles.
Does anyone else have a better idea?

strip graze with a back fence, easy to adjust over the season, and entirely flexible, just have to sort the water out, have see wheeled water troughs, so pipe on top of ground.

 

[Samcowman]

strip graze with a back fence, easy to adjust over the season, and entirely flexible, just have to sort the water out, have see wheeled water troughs, so pipe on top of ground.

Water will be run up the middle fence as far as needed. With the main line running along the other side of the hedge at the south side of the field. Trying to get more semi permanent fences in to ease the work load in the grazing season.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Hi Pete. With this revised grazing technique; do you not feel worms will become an issue more for the sheep. Previously grazing just the tops you were avoiding the danger zone?

Yes, and no

If we were just going around and around grazing at low levels, then I would expect some of the stock to fail (worm burdens etc) but that doesn't account for "time" nor the selective grazing element; sheep are still grazing some plants really low despite "leaving grass behind" and the time between grazings is perfect for reinfection of all sorts of pathogens and parasites.

To an extent (depending on how you look at our operation) what we are almost doing is what we always do - export problems - in this case we won't have any sheep to become reinfected in 4 months time so that's not an issue.
The next grazing will be months away so that in itself would reduce the transmission of things like footrot, parasites etc.
The real key in any case is sticking to the plan and not saying "but there's plenty of grass there now" and putting some lambs on it to fatten.
I think that's possibly the main issue with conventional grazing practices and certainly with the "take ⅓" grazing from a sheep farming perspective? It's like a propagation system for health problems in that respect, grazings 20-30 days apart are absolutely perfect for putting pressure on livestock.

What we do with those who fail under pressure is quite important, nobody wants to get rid of stock that a wormer will "fix" but that is an imperfect solution as well.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Doing a bit of planning for next seasons grazing and have this one blooody awkward field in the block.
Working on a provisional 25 day round on a new herbal ley with daily shifts of 0.4ha. View attachment 934274
I am thinking 3 paddocks on the left and 5 on the right with a semi permanent fence up the line where the line is. They would come in stage left just below the house working north then switch across the top to the right hand side and work south which they exit stage right. It's only the odd shaped triangles by the driveway at the top that don't fit,
The other paddocks are easy rectangles.
Does anyone else have a better idea?

Make it into easy rectangles as well?

I'd run lanes with the tramlines, would maybe split into ⅓s across the bottom of the field and graze south, then hop into the middle and graze north, and hop into the last lane and graze south again to exist the field in the right place. Whatever makes the paddocks as square as possible.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Do I recall a Spanish firm doing automated pogo style sticks? What are the option's for automation, pogo sticks and Gallagher batt latch?

Yes, PensAgro makes wire-lifters on timers. Have two of them to unbox in the winter

 

[Bowland Bob]

Yes, and no

If we were just going around and around grazing at low levels, then I would expect some of the stock to fail (worm burdens etc) but that doesn't account for "time" nor the selective grazing element; sheep are still grazing some plants really low despite "leaving grass behind" and the time between grazings is perfect for reinfection of all sorts of pathogens and parasites.

To an extent (depending on how you look at our operation) what we are almost doing is what we always do - export problems - in this case we won't have any sheep to become reinfected in 4 months time so that's not an issue.
The next grazing will be months away so that in itself would reduce the transmission of things like footrot, parasites etc.
The real key in any case is sticking to the plan and not saying "but there's plenty of grass there now" and putting some lambs on it to fatten.
I think that's possibly the main issue with conventional grazing practices and certainly with the "take ⅓" grazing from a sheep farming perspective? It's like a propagation system for health problems in that respect, grazings 20-30 days apart are absolutely perfect for putting pressure on livestock.

What we do with those who fail under pressure is quite important, nobody wants to get rid of stock that a wormer will "fix" but that is an imperfect solution as well.

I watched the Graeme Hand video last night, would trampling not have a similar effect on the less sought after grasses if the stocking density was high enough? Also, Greg Judy and the like talk of the trampled litter putting a layer of carbon on the ground, for the worms and soil microbes, as well as protecting the soil from extremes of temperatures. Does this layer not help build soil as well as helping with the sponge effect? Perhaps there's a time and place for both methods as @som farmer eluded to.

 

[Fenwick]

Yes, PensAgro makes wire-lifters on timers. Have two of them to unbox in the winter

Beat me to it! was going to buy a couple next month.

 

[Crofter64]

Ah, straight from the horse's mouth! It's going to be real trial and error here early on. But you can only do what you can do. I'll try OAD shifts and dabble with more moves when I have time.

Moving them more than once a day seems like an impossibility till you turn it into a habit and then suddenly it fits seamlessly into your day.

 

[Samcowman]

Thanks Pete. 3 alley looks doable.
Positives shorter cross fences, virtually square paddocks on first round and easier fencing in busy times. Couple of negatives more semi permanent but not a big deal and mobile water line I would think run the middle of the middle alley rather than fenceline.
Need to start marking out fences next couple of weeks so will have a play

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Beat me to it! was going to buy a couple next month.

Mine took ages to arrive.

But there is little point me trying to use them now with my mob as big as it is, the orange poly fences need the protection of 2 people + wide gap to slow them down enough - because it isn't visible enough

Judging by last winter, 6 shifts per day would be ideal, having 2 overnight/daytime shifts managed by machine, and then a burst of time morning and evening is suitable for us and what we want to achieve here.