"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
14 days behind the mob is growing.
20210117_102239.jpg

It makes me wonder how much longer those stock could've stayed there - if they weren't mostly all youngstock with no real teeth - and how far you could push out to the next grazing 🤔
I watched the Graeme Hand video last night, would trampling not have a similar effect on the less sought after grasses if the stocking density was high enough? Also, Greg Judy and the like talk of the trampled litter putting a layer of carbon on the ground, for the worms and soil microbes, as well as protecting the soil from extremes of temperatures. Does this layer not help build soil as well as helping with the sponge effect? Perhaps there's a time and place for both methods as @som farmer eluded to.
Yes it's definitely a matter of "non selective trampling", depending on what you have on the land of course.
Good examples would be bracken, or thorny stuff like our matagouri bushes or rosehips. You can easily smash down bracken enough, with grazing alone.

the term "sought after" is a good one (y) what do we really want?
 

Bowland Bob

Member
Livestock Farmer
14 days behind the mob is growing. View attachment 934316
It makes me wonder how much longer those stock could've stayed there - if they weren't mostly all youngstock with no real teeth - and how far you could push out to the next grazing 🤔

Yes it's definitely a matter of "non selective trampling", depending on what you have on the land of course.
Good examples would be bracken, or thorny stuff like our matagouri bushes or rosehips. You can easily smash down bracken enough, with grazing alone.

the term "sought after" is a good one (y) what do we really want?
Trying this with the bracken atm!
 

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Bowland Bob

Member
Livestock Farmer
It'll be interesting to see what happens there! Matter of interest - what caused the green strip between the bracken plots?
It'll be interesting to see what happens there! Matter of interest - what caused the green strip between the bracken plots?
Ha, a good effect of trampling I guess, it's a track the sheep have formed over the years.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Trying this with the bracken atm!
definitely missing a trick there, should have cut and baled that bracken, wort a fortune this year ! An old gamekeeper locally, kept his laying stock, and reared the poults, in a deer park, he was slowly clearing bracken by first mowing it, then putting the pens on it, it didn't recover from that, his theory, the pheasant sh1t made the ground to 'strong' for the bracken, no idea if that is right, but it certainly worked, you could see the square patches in the bracken.
 

onesiedale

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Derbyshire
Thanks Pete. 3 alley looks doable.
Positives shorter cross fences, virtually square paddocks on first round and easier fencing in busy times. Couple of negatives more semi permanent but not a big deal and mobile water line I would think run the middle of the middle alley rather than fenceline.
Need to start marking out fences next couple of weeks so will have a play
I would do 3 x alley. But with water down both fence lines. Much smaller fence runs, easier to manage. Just a little more water pipe.
 
That's where "we're at", incredible results but just the time input needs to go much further.
Hence spending the money on improving systems before spending money on recurring things and then trying to improve systems on a shoestring
It's a bit 'chicken and egg' here. The ultimate aim would be to eliminate the need to work off farm. As I see it, the best way to do that is by increasing the stocking rate and the best way to do that is by increasing stock density and increasing the number of moves. This all takes time, which is in short supply as I need to work off farm! If I'd had the chance as a younger man, I would have gritted my teeth and grafted through it. Although by no means old, that level of energy just isn't there any more ☹️. I am determined to do what I can do without knackering myself and slowly work towards the goal, however.
 

Samcowman

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cornwall
I would do 3 x alley. But with water down both fence lines. Much smaller fence runs, easier to manage. Just a little more water pipe.
I was thinking of using a kiwitech 100l trough to move around so a water line up the middle and just move it from side to side to water the outside alleys. Then the same trough can be used on the other fields as well.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
between all the posts on here, there is definitely a consensus that say's grazing management is a critical part of 'regenerative' systems, if we take that one step further, (or several), by how much, can ren farming affect our bottom line, profit. That for all off us, is the important result. Given that we are improving our soils, hopefully saving money on sprays/seeds/fert, by how much, can our improved soil, treated carefully, increase the stocking density of our farms, i am absolutely sure, that statement can be substantiated, from our own little experiments here, especially with the tight grazing, long rest, we have found that not only can you increase the stocking capacity, you can improve the quality of the grasses in it, so, win win. I think a quote from greg judy, in that we adapt our farms, to allow for a system we are told/advised/want to do, and we really have to change our mind set, a very hard thing to do sometimes. It seems entirely stupid, to be told, by stocking grass less, you can achieve more output. Pretty well up the to the invention of refrigerated ships, most of the meat eaten here was home produced, that and the mass importation of cheap grain, were the two main drivers pushing home produced downwards. Up till then, farming must have managed the land, in a way, that ensured it would continue producing the 'goods', you only have to look at some of the massive stone barns etc, to know there was money to spare. Quite a long thought train this, but what i am trying to think through, is those pastures must have produced the grass, to supply the meat, just as rotation allowed the cereal grown. Although we live, and farm, in very different times, and very different ways, without all the sprays, fert etc, and allowing for 40% of our food imported, how much less did those pastures actually produce, if any.
 
between all the posts on here, there is definitely a consensus that say's grazing management is a critical part of 'regenerative' systems, if we take that one step further, (or several), by how much, can ren farming affect our bottom line, profit. That for all off us, is the important result. Given that we are improving our soils, hopefully saving money on sprays/seeds/fert, by how much, can our improved soil, treated carefully, increase the stocking density of our farms, i am absolutely sure, that statement can be substantiated, from our own little experiments here, especially with the tight grazing, long rest, we have found that not only can you increase the stocking capacity, you can improve the quality of the grasses in it, so, win win. I think a quote from greg judy, in that we adapt our farms, to allow for a system we are told/advised/want to do, and we really have to change our mind set, a very hard thing to do sometimes. It seems entirely stupid, to be told, by stocking grass less, you can achieve more output. Pretty well up the to the invention of refrigerated ships, most of the meat eaten here was home produced, that and the mass importation of cheap grain, were the two main drivers pushing home produced downwards. Up till then, farming must have managed the land, in a way, that ensured it would continue producing the 'goods', you only have to look at some of the massive stone barns etc, to know there was money to spare. Quite a long thought train this, but what i am trying to think through, is those pastures must have produced the grass, to supply the meat, just as rotation allowed the cereal grown. Although we live, and farm, in very different times, and very different ways, without all the sprays, fert etc, and allowing for 40% of our food imported, how much less did those pastures actually produce, if any.

That's why there were so many "little fields" and mixed farming. Progress has brought ever increasing field sizes and "special"isation.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
That's why there were so many "little fields" and mixed farming. Progress has brought ever increasing field sizes and "special"isation.
interesting point, off subject, but when we had the archaeologists here, they pointed out, that big fields were for livestock, and little fields were arable, suprising, but i presume they new, we were mainly livestock.
 
between all the posts on here, there is definitely a consensus that say's grazing management is a critical part of 'regenerative' systems, if we take that one step further, (or several), by how much, can ren farming affect our bottom line, profit. That for all off us, is the important result. Given that we are improving our soils, hopefully saving money on sprays/seeds/fert, by how much, can our improved soil, treated carefully, increase the stocking density of our farms, i am absolutely sure, that statement can be substantiated, from our own little experiments here, especially with the tight grazing, long rest, we have found that not only can you increase the stocking capacity, you can improve the quality of the grasses in it, so, win win. I think a quote from greg judy, in that we adapt our farms, to allow for a system we are told/advised/want to do, and we really have to change our mind set, a very hard thing to do sometimes. It seems entirely stupid, to be told, by stocking grass less, you can achieve more output. Pretty well up the to the invention of refrigerated ships, most of the meat eaten here was home produced, that and the mass importation of cheap grain, were the two main drivers pushing home produced downwards. Up till then, farming must have managed the land, in a way, that ensured it would continue producing the 'goods', you only have to look at some of the massive stone barns etc, to know there was money to spare. Quite a long thought train this, but what i am trying to think through, is those pastures must have produced the grass, to supply the meat, just as rotation allowed the cereal grown. Although we live, and farm, in very different times, and very different ways, without all the sprays, fert etc, and allowing for 40% of our food imported, how much less did those pastures actually produce, if any.
Population of UK was 30.5 million in 1900, and kids then didn’t expect a Big Mac every weekend! Meat was more of a luxury, wool was relatively more valuable then as well. People in the UK now expect cheap and freely available meat, dairy, eggs and poultry. A lot of them aren’t bothered where it comes from.

Another change that refrigerated transport has facilitated is exports of certain meat cuts and offals. A good percentage of beef rump skirt/ flap meat produced in UK is now sold in France, as bavette d’aloyau. Cheeks and marrow bones at certain times are sold to Central Europe. Feet are sold to West Africa, tendons to the Far East. All of this protein would have been consumed domestically before the advent of refrigeration, making the domestic production go further, if you see what I mean. How many people in UK ever eat ox liver, for example?
 

Treg

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cornwall
interesting point, off subject, but when we had the archaeologists here, they pointed out, that big fields were for livestock, and little fields were arable, suprising, but i presume they new, we were mainly livestock.
I had a friend who had archaeologists at his farm and while walking a gully they were amazed at the trees & dated the gully at several hundred years old and wondered what the gully was used for.....friend said " you do realise there use to be a railway line through here and it closed over 40yrs ago" :LOL: :D
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
Population of UK was 30.5 million in 1900, and kids then didn’t expect a Big Mac every weekend! Meat was more of a luxury, wool was relatively more valuable then as well. People in the UK now expect cheap and freely available meat, dairy, eggs and poultry. A lot of them aren’t bothered where it comes from.

Another change that refrigerated transport has facilitated is exports of certain meat cuts and offals. A good percentage of beef rump skirt/ flap meat produced in UK is now sold in France, as bavette d’aloyau. Cheeks and marrow bones at certain times are sold to Central Europe. Feet are sold to West Africa, tendons to the Far East. All of this protein would have been consumed domestically before the advent of refrigeration, making the domestic production go further, if you see what I mean. How many people in UK ever eat ox liver, for example?
Ox liver :sick:

On the other hand:
Heart (y)
Tongue :love:
Oxtail :love:
Cheek :love:
 
between all the posts on here, there is definitely a consensus that say's grazing management is a critical part of 'regenerative' systems, if we take that one step further, (or several), by how much, can ren farming affect our bottom line, profit. That for all off us, is the important result. Given that we are improving our soils, hopefully saving money on sprays/seeds/fert, by how much, can our improved soil, treated carefully, increase the stocking density of our farms, i am absolutely sure, that statement can be substantiated, from our own little experiments here, especially with the tight grazing, long rest, we have found that not only can you increase the stocking capacity, you can improve the quality of the grasses in it, so, win win. I think a quote from greg judy, in that we adapt our farms, to allow for a system we are told/advised/want to do, and we really have to change our mind set, a very hard thing to do sometimes. It seems entirely stupid, to be told, by stocking grass less, you can achieve more output. Pretty well up the to the invention of refrigerated ships, most of the meat eaten here was home produced, that and the mass importation of cheap grain, were the two main drivers pushing home produced downwards. Up till then, farming must have managed the land, in a way, that ensured it would continue producing the 'goods', you only have to look at some of the massive stone barns etc, to know there was money to spare. Quite a long thought train this, but what i am trying to think through, is those pastures must have produced the grass, to supply the meat, just as rotation allowed the cereal grown. Although we live, and farm, in very different times, and very different ways, without all the sprays, fert etc, and allowing for 40% of our food imported, how much less did those pastures actually produce, if any.
One thing to bear in mind is that before mechanisation, all the workhorses would have needed fed off the land as well. A Clydesdale working hard will put away some amount of oats and hay!
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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