"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[som farmer]

Thanks for that formula. Handy and simple.

based on that we have 74.6 LU on just under 70ac / 2.67LU/ha

and 26LU on 26ac / 2.47LU/ha

we are quite overstocked at that (over winter) but could probably run twice SR that over summer - IF we had winter off - which we probably will do after these heifers go home and our yearlings are finished
That would be a game-changer as we'd be stocked at more like 2.67ha per LU

we should all do a 'proper' calculation, rather than rely on our 'knowledge' of the ground, every season is different. The only time we do that calculation, with those figures, is for NVZ and RT purposes, and then that result, is 'made to fit' the right result, for a 'tick box', so, really for us, it doesn't count, it's a 'meaningless' figure produced, for a meaningless autocratic, quango. NVZ, l accept, is correct, but the answer has to 'fit', having had a jobsworth EA idiot, trying to catch us out, we know, there are several correct answers, to comply, they just have to be, the right one, for the person, asking the question.
RT, there is no reason why they should be involved, in any way, but they are, and we are forced to jump through their hoops, which are different to EA's, 👨‍✈️👨‍
As for fert prices, they are only heading one way, and l feel certain, with climate change zealots, preaching death and destruction, they want them completely banned, along with farting cows, so, that will leave us with the only alternative, rotation, legumes and cover crops. Interestingly, in the direct driller mag, there are the results of trial plots, of wheat, with, normal spray, none, and 'insect' control, the latter stood up to full spray, very well. But no-one addresses the two real problems, teaching people that food comes from farming, and they don't pay enough, to achieve what they 'want'.

 

[Fenwick]

how long before we end back up, with 'proper pp', not sure it will go that far, but we need to get a sward that gives even production, throughout the grazing season, we know clover comes into it's own, as grass growth declines, what other alternatives, can we use/choose.

Interseeding annuals?

Out of interest, what's everyone's stocking rate? Not stock density. For example we are farming around 70 acres and have 42 animals, 25 fully grown and the others of various ages. Slightly top heavy as we are trying to expand the breeding herd and there's a lot of maidens in there.
Our stock density in the main herd of 35 has been between 17 and 200 ton/ha.
Interested as it helps me work out what we should get to in order to keep a steady supply of winter feed standing in front of them come winter.
I realize that some of you destock at certain times, so please give your highest and lowest numbers as a guide.

1.6 LWU/Ha so that includes all input feed, we don't buy anything in. I think 2 LWU/ha may be achievable one day.

Over here when not using spray to kill the old pp or anything unwanted after seeding, we use oats in the mix. Grows so fast that it will outgrow weeds or the old pp. You graze it or mow it before it goes to seed, by then the new pasture you have sown together with the oats will take over.

Have had a fair bit of succes broadcasting it, in some cases just to prevent all kinds of weeds taking over a certain field where plans were unsure, even the cheapest feed/fodder oats come up quite well.

We always sow a new pasture under a whole crop cover. I have a couple of freinds who even bring the cereals to harvest grain.
I've got 4ha of new pasture to sow in september, and we will be using oats for the first time (always used triticale before) we are using oats because we think we may be able to sow in one pass with the grass seed as oats do well at shallow depths (always did two before with the triticale). What sowing rate do you use? We were thinking about 80kg/ha.

 

[Boso]

Interseeding annuals?



1.6 LWU/Ha so that includes all input feed, we don't buy anything in. I think 2 LWU/ha may be achievable one day.




We always sow a new pasture under a whole crop cover. I have a couple of freinds who even bring the cereals to harvest grain.
I've got 4ha of new pasture to sow in september, and we will be using oats for the first time (always used triticale before) we are using oats because we think we may be able to sow in one pass with the grass seed as oats do well at shallow depths (always did two before with the triticale). What sowing rate do you use? We were thinking about 80kg/ha.

Used about 100kg of feed grade oats per ha and broadcasted them with a fert spreader. If you drill them and use seed grade oats I'm sure you will be fine with 80kg. Hope you like it as much as we did!

 

[Jonny B88]

Out of interest, what's everyone's stocking rate? Not stock density. For example we are farming around 70 acres and have 42 animals, 25 fully grown and the others of various ages. Slightly top heavy as we are trying to expand the breeding herd and there's a lot of maidens in there.
Our stock density in the main herd of 35 has been between 17 and 200 ton/ha.
Interested as it helps me work out what we should get to in order to keep a steady supply of winter feed standing in front of them come winter.
I realize that some of you destock at certain times, so please give your highest and lowest numbers as a guide.

Roughly in and around 2-2.5LU/ha
As Pete said, you could easily run 3-4 during summer, but thats not the hungry period. Summer is the accelerator pedal, winter the brake.

 

[Woolless]

Interseeding annuals?



1.6 LWU/Ha so that includes all input feed, we don't buy anything in. I think 2 LWU/ha may be achievable one day.




We always sow a new pasture under a whole crop cover. I have a couple of freinds who even bring the cereals to harvest grain.
I've got 4ha of new pasture to sow in september, and we will be using oats for the first time (always used triticale before) we are using oats because we think we may be able to sow in one pass with the grass seed as oats do well at shallow depths (always did two before with the triticale). What sowing rate do you use? We were thinking about 80kg/ha.

Used about 100kg of feed grade oats per ha and broadcasted them with a fert spreader. If you drill them and use seed grade oats I'm sure you will be fine with 80kg. Hope you like it as much as we did!

I really like this idea. Would you drill the new grass seed (or whatever) at the normal rate along with it?

 

[Woolless]

Mixing it up a bit here. Cows have just finished grazing the 10 acre field they started on June 11th. Their next stop is next door field, which I divided one third/two thirds with electric fence a fortnight ago. 185 weaned lambs got two thirds. The cattle were meant to be going into the one third but, other than a very strong bit near the gate, it's the best keep on the place at the moment so I've shoved all the lambs onto it. This includes the 110 lambs grazing the 'reseed'. They seem to have had the best of that for now. Tidy up with the ewes followed by a top, I think.

So, the cows and calves are playing follow my leader to fully utilise the grazing after the lambs now. Hopefully there's enough left to keep everyone happy! Didn't have my phone. Will try to remember to take photos at next shift on Sunday.

 

[Boso]

I really like this idea. Would you drill the new grass seed (or whatever) at the normal rate along with it?

Yes

 

[Samcowman]

Mixing it up a bit here. Cows have just finished grazing the 10 acre field they started on June 11th. Their next stop is next door field, which I divided one third/two thirds with electric fence a fortnight ago. 185 weaned lambs got two thirds. The cattle were meant to be going into the one third but, other than a very strong bit near the gate, it's the best keep on the place at the moment so I've shoved all the lambs onto it. This includes the 110 lambs grazing the 'reseed'. They seem to have had the best of that for now. Tidy up with the ewes followed by a top, I think.

So, the cows and calves are playing follow my leader to fully utilise the grazing after the lambs now. Hopefully there's enough left to keep everyone happy! Didn't have my phone. Will try to remember to take photos at next shift on Sunday.

Being devils advocate here but why top?
Could the cows do the same job with a bit of electric fencing?

 

[som farmer]

when l sold the dairy, our accountant wasn't over keen on suckler cows to replace them, his instructions, were, feed the sucklers, on what the sheep leave. Idea was right, but not very practical.
When son made the decision to go back into dairy, and it really was his choice, l realised that l had never really got dairy, out of my farming practices, which was probably the 'wrong' mindset for beef and sheep.
But whatever you farm, grass, and grass management, is the absolute must do properly, it can be the make, or break, of a profitable business.
This thread is very different to what many advisors advise, Hence l dislike most reps, on here, we try and improve grass, or maximise it's use, to our advantage, by looking after that grass, from a different point of view, it is very easy to pile on fert, regularly turn it over, and reseed, whereas we try alternative ways of management, taking a longer view. Both can give good results, but one has a longer better effect. Perhaps one of the biggest pro's, is simply the fact there are no rules, you can decide how far you go, or still use some modern aids, it's up to you.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

A bit more moo-juice this year, @Blaithin. Just about to go grab another calf or two for her.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

when l sold the dairy, our accountant wasn't over keen on suckler cows to replace them, his instructions, were, feed the sucklers, on what the sheep leave. Idea was right, but not very practical.
When son made the decision to go back into dairy, and it really was his choice, l realised that l had never really got dairy, out of my farming practices, which was probably the 'wrong' mindset for beef and sheep.
But whatever you farm, grass, and grass management, is the absolute must do properly, it can be the make, or break, of a profitable business.
This thread is very different to what many advisors advise, Hence l dislike most reps, on here, we try and improve grass, or maximise it's use, to our advantage, by looking after that grass, from a different point of view, it is very easy to pile on fert, regularly turn it over, and reseed, whereas we try alternative ways of management, taking a longer view. Both can give good results, but one has a longer better effect. Perhaps one of the biggest pro's, is simply the fact there are no rules, you can decide how far you go, or still use some modern aids, it's up to you.

Few fully seem to understand just how different the management requirements are for dairy and beef cows.

They're all cows, ain't they?

 

[Woolless]

Being devils advocate here but why top?
Could the cows do the same job with a bit of electric fencing?

I had thought of that but not really enough cows to do the job quickly. I need it reset so that there's good lamb grazing there ASAP. I'll see what it looks like after the ewes have been through it. It's disappointed me, really. I was hoping my Hampshire lambs would really motor on it. Moving them off after two weeks is a sickener.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Few fully seem to understand just how different the management requirements are for dairy and beef cows.

They're all cows, ain't they?

Financially, too.

It isn't much chop if your only game is selling calves from a high-cost system, when your dairying neighbours have calves free to a good home, from their own high-cost systems.

Guess who starves first?

That's where alot of the sheep+beef guys here are now, they've developed these relatively-cheap-but-definitely-not-free systems for feeding the stock
.. and then get $600 for the calf which barely covers the baleage, the crops, the fertiliser, spray, animal health - and the depreciation.
It looked great at $800 or $900 per calf, which is how they got where they are.

I prefer cows that can melt a little, but feed a couple of calves as well as one - not having to fert spray mow ted rake bale plough plant (spending your profits) frees up the time to wrassle cows and calves (doubling the profits)

just as well it aint easy to put a cow in a chute

 

[Henarar]

Few fully seem to understand just how different the management requirements are for dairy and beef cows.

They're all cows, ain't they?

Looking back I spose all we done different when we went from dairy to suck cows was to stop buying cake.
the dairy cows were fed old PP grass and bale silage then just as the suck cows are now.


oh and we have lots and lots to do the milking now instead of one or two

 

[Ffermer Bach]

when l sold the dairy, our accountant wasn't over keen on suckler cows to replace them, his instructions, were, feed the sucklers, on what the sheep leave. Idea was right, but not very practical.
When son made the decision to go back into dairy, and it really was his choice, l realised that l had never really got dairy, out of my farming practices, which was probably the 'wrong' mindset for beef and sheep.
But whatever you farm, grass, and grass management, is the absolute must do properly, it can be the make, or break, of a profitable business.
This thread is very different to what many advisors advise, Hence l dislike most reps, on here, we try and improve grass, or maximise it's use, to our advantage, by looking after that grass, from a different point of view, it is very easy to pile on fert, regularly turn it over, and reseed, whereas we try alternative ways of management, taking a longer view. Both can give good results, but one has a longer better effect. Perhaps one of the biggest pro's, is simply the fact there are no rules, you can decide how far you go, or still use some modern aids, it's up to you.

Just been on a farming connect course on rotational management, and the advisor said, often the best beef & sheep grassland farmers (best at managing grassland) then move to dairy, as they can better use their skills at maximising grassland production and utilisation.

He also said that in NZ they don't think of Nitrogen as an essential fertliser, rather a supplement for the grassland.

 

[som farmer]

Few fully seem to understand just how different the management requirements are for dairy and beef cows.

They're all cows, ain't they?

and that's the problem, you can 'get away' with your grass quality, if your management gets out of sync, with beef cows, with dairy, same mistake with dairy = less milk.
It is also why the plate metre is so popular, you can measure the grass growth, and create a chart, on what you actually have, and work from there.
We would have found the p/metre completely useless, in the last few years, our problem has been lack of moisture, resulting in grass syncing itself, either nothing, or pretty well the same growth stage, right across the grazing platform, both crap.
That is why we searched around, looking for an alternative/cure, because what we had always done, was no longer working, have we found the answer, if we have, this year should have proved it, but nature being nature, she has given us a completely different summer, so, it's think, rather than know.
If the problem is broken down to the basic facts, it's lack of moisture, and grass syncing itself, so never having a 'proper' grazing rotation of 'decent' grass, the latter crucial, to profitable dairy farming.
Moisture is in natures control, and all you can do, is encourage as much as possible, to stay with you, which is really soil structure, improvement of.
Grass type, clover and herbs, is perhaps where major gains can be achieved, the major grass type, is rye grass, which has proved to be unreliable here, any stress, and it wants to head, which means quality gone, milk lost etc, so, varieties of grass etc, need to be tried. The ultimate goal, is to produce a grazing mix, that gives a steady supply of high quality food, right through the season. It's great knowing the answers, it's how you get to the answer, which is the hard bit, that and keeping weeds out. Having said all that, it's making farming much more 'fun'.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Just been on a farming connect course on rotational management, and the advisor said, often the best beef & sheep grassland farmers (best at managing grassland) then move to dairy, as they can better use their skills at maximising grassland production and utilisation.

He also said that in NZ they don't think of Nitrogen as an essential fertliser, rather a supplement for the grassland.

It's really quite valid. My last farm boss was an ex-sheep-farmer turned dairy owner.

I'm an ex dairy / sheep / deer guy turned drystock - as per hour spent, it's the most profitable . We pinch a good percentage of the dairyman's income for SFA actual work, their stock do it for us.

If you work on a low-input dairy cow producing 375kgMS @ $6.50 = $2440 ish, I'm happy to extract our $591.50 from her, for taking good care of her calf.
Even at 20% replacement rate, we get almost 5% of their milk revenue, for a few minutes per day....

I'm not as good a farmer, as I am good at making money for little effort, and I only intend to get lazier as I get older

 

[Kiwi Pete]

and that's the problem, you can 'get away' with your grass quality, if your management gets out of sync, with beef cows, with dairy, same mistake with dairy = less milk.
It is also why the plate metre is so popular, you can measure the grass growth, and create a chart, on what you actually have, and work from there.
We would have found the p/metre completely useless, in the last few years, our problem has been lack of moisture, resulting in grass syncing itself, either nothing, or pretty well the same growth stage, right across the grazing platform, both crap.
That is why we searched around, looking for an alternative/cure, because what we had always done, was no longer working, have we found the answer, if we have, this year should have proved it, but nature being nature, she has given us a completely different summer, so, it's think, rather than know.
If the problem is broken down to the basic facts, it's lack of moisture, and grass syncing itself, so never having a 'proper' grazing rotation of 'decent' grass, the latter crucial, to profitable dairy farming.
Moisture is in natures control, and all you can do, is encourage as much as possible, to stay with you, which is really soil structure, improvement of.
Grass type, clover and herbs, is perhaps where major gains can be achieved, the major grass type, is rye grass, which has proved to be unreliable here, any stress, and it wants to head, which means quality gone, milk lost etc, so, varieties of grass etc, need to be tried. The ultimate goal, is to produce a grazing mix, that gives a steady supply of high quality food, right through the season. It's great knowing the answers, it's how you get to the answer, which is the hard bit, that and keeping weeds out. Having said all that, it's making farming much more 'fun'.

Specialisation is one of the major problems here too, though. Just as the suckler guy can become a one trick pony (producing a calf per cow), only getting income from milk production is a major dropped catch IMO.
Think of how much less milk you could make if every calf born either was a replacement, or as a value-added product (good beef x calf)

I see it here alot with the wasteage of what we call "bobby calves", it's hardly a surprise that a jersey bull throws a jersey x calf worth virtually nothing to the farmer.
Using my "$591.50" figure for grazing a calf into an incalf heifer, that's eerily similar for a beef x calf at the weaner sales, so milk production can then afford to drop, and bought-in protein can be cut out.

Replacement rate drops, incalf rate climbs... money in your back pocket. I nearly came to blows with our farm consultant over this topic.

 

[Henarar]

and that's the problem, you can 'get away' with your grass quality, if your management gets out of sync, with beef cows, with dairy, same mistake with dairy = less milk.

But if your inputs are more less than the milk is less then where is the problem ?
more can be less
or are there folk dyeing left right and centre for lack of milk to drink ?
in which case more would indeed be less

 

[som farmer]

But if your inputs are more less than the milk is less then where is the problem ?
more can be less
or are there folk dyeing left right and centre for lack of milk to drink ?
in which case more would indeed be less

short term drops in cow lactation, are not really short, they never quite get back to where they were.
No, people are not dying for lack of milk, in fact UK heading for record year, and having been told for yrs, over production leads to price drops, as with lambs/export, and beef, the opposite has occurred.
Imputs, are a thorny subject, for your question, they pretty well are constant, for dairy, in amounts, but not necessarily cost, and with grass, if management is the same, weather changing production, leads to less, best, utilisation, of the crop, which means the grass, is more expensive, in periods of stress, or bluntly put, there's milk in young leafy grass, but not so much, in headed/heading mature grass, but it might have cost the same to get both.