"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
watched some wild cattle handling, on u'tube, we know nothing about handling wild horned cattle, it's amusing to watch, l think they are bred for the bull ring in spain, but they are definitely dangerous. Why, no idea, but they were screwing brass fittings, onto the points, with a brass 'ball' on the end, to stop any serious injury, l suspect, to idiots, but would do the same for other cattle, looked allright to.

@Kiwi Pete yanks keep on about orchard grass, which l have assumed to be cocksfoot, and kentucky bluegrass, again assuming that is a fesque, timothy and clover. However you never hear overmuch about ryegrass, that may well be because of who i 'follow' either have 24/7 housed dairy, or beef outside, and indeed of what part of USA they are.
Considering the importance we attach to ryegrass, seems slightly strange they don't mention much about them, and of course, they have a few different crops to utilise, you never know, we might be missing a trick or two !
"Poa pratensis, commonly known as Kentucky bluegrass, smooth meadow-grass, or common meadow-grass, is a perennial species of grass native to practically all of Europe, North Asia and the mountains of Algeria and Morocco."
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
"Poa pratensis, commonly known as Kentucky bluegrass, smooth meadow-grass, or common meadow-grass, is a perennial species of grass native to practically all of Europe, North Asia and the mountains of Algeria and Morocco."
perhaps we should expand our grass mixes, suspect a lot of 'other' grasses are more resilient to weather stresses, than ryegrasses. Rye grass has been the central component of leys, for decades, and been bred to produce quality yields, but many varieties only have a short lifespan, 4-5 years, or less, so require reseeding, an expensive process, not only in cost, but fuel and carbon release, as well, and we hear a lot about the benefits of permanent grass, from the carbon side. There is little doubt we will be encouraged along those lines, which for many of us, is a new 'thing', time to learn, perhaps.
How will organic farming cope with the carbon side of it, our neighbours are constantly ploughing, for there rotation, as the use of fossil fuels, and carbon sequestration, they seem to be at odds with each other.
I went around the gardens, of the fancy new playground/hotel, for the ultra rich, they 'allow' the public around the grounds, for a price, stunning, is the best way to describe it, but in the organic veg patch, l noted all the cabbages/greens were ravished by bugs - my pet dislike of organic veg.
 

Walwyn

Member
Location
West Wales
As Einstein said so well, "the theory decides what we can observe"
Think I know what video you've watched in the past 24 hours. 😂
i think husbandry is the word the other thing is the way young stock are reared some are overfed and become lazy digesters a bit like modern kids that are fat on junk food its as if they dont develop their digestion
We hosted a regenerative farming event for milk buyer just over a week ago. My aunty came up to later and commented "its basically just good husbandry then?"
Yes in a nutshell that is what has been forgotten in the quest for "production".
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
I’ve never had horned animals wreck my Hotwire. They don’t reach under it at all. Nor do the polled either, really. They respect the poly wire.

Now they’ll reach through actual fences and wreck them…

Som Farmer, brass balls on the end take away the points of the horns. Very common to see in oxen. You’ll see farmers who just saw the end off to blunt the horn but that will actually cause the horn to start to curl (it’s another method of shaping them that some people are very good at.) but if you aren’t good at it and you’re just whacking off the end, many times you’ll end up with those sharp curls that turn into the animals face.

If someone isn’t interested in using horn weights to shape horns and get them away from ideal stabby shape, then they can try sloping them and I’ve even seen people talk about scraping them to get them to turn.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
I’ve never had horned animals wreck my Hotwire. They don’t reach under it at all. Nor do the polled either, really. They respect the poly wire.

Now they’ll reach through actual fences and wreck them…

Som Farmer, brass balls on the end take away the points of the horns. Very common to see in oxen. You’ll see farmers who just saw the end off to blunt the horn but that will actually cause the horn to start to curl (it’s another method of shaping them that some people are very good at.) but if you aren’t good at it and you’re just whacking off the end, many times you’ll end up with those sharp curls that turn into the animals face.

If someone isn’t interested in using horn weights to shape horns and get them away from ideal stabby shape, then they can try sloping them and I’ve even seen people talk about scraping them to get them to turn.
very unusual to see oxen either, but they looked alright, but then, that might have been because they were new and shiny.
Dehorning on farm, as calves, is one of those jobs that tend to get put off, and off, then it's summer and flies, then at housing, wire them off, quite good at that, taught a young vet how to, last yr, she didn't have a clue. Bought a bunch of very old sucklers yrs ago, with massive horns, took them off with a guillotine, when they 'cracked' it was like a rifle going off, quite impressive, the wooden handle broke off, and still lives behind our back door, just like a baseball bat, never had cause for concern though. Vets now offer a dehorning service £6.50 calve, and it's all done, without our help (y):) The sooner they breed in hornless genes, the better, some already are dairy wise.
But to faff around shaping them, most definitely not for me, though l have seen the lead weights to do it, here, but can not remember ever seeing it done.
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
Ox pulls are common enough competitions. Not as easy to find as heavy horse pulls but they’re around. That’s where I’ve seen the brass balls.
8B8B598C-788D-4039-9DB2-805A9D46E406.jpeg


As for the time faffing about, the breeders I’ve read about doing curving usually get them all done in a day. It’s included in the annual running through for their shots, and seems to be best done at 12-14 months. Quick clip of the end and they’re done for life. Hardly an in depth process once you know how to do it. Weights would be one extra run through. Bring them in to put the weights on, bring them in to take the weights off once the curve has started, usually around 6 weeks later.

I don’t think it’s done as often because people just don’t know about it or do think it’s a lot of additional work. If my dehorning failed again this year on any heifers I’m determined to put my weights on and get a nice curve. It just makes an animal look fancier.

That said, curved horns can still be a pain. You may lower the chance of injury to other animals but youd still be limited to types of feeders. My horned animals need a tombstone bale ring for example. And working them, while easier than straight horns, still requires a different something. Less rushing, good person on the headgate, more patience, kind of thing. I’d think anyone who runs English Longhorns could give a good idea of management with a curved horn herd.
 
Last edited:
I think they look great, I gave up looking for lighter cows and drifted off to counting the knots in your fence.
Second time through I looked a bit more critically 🙄

Shifting on gutfill is where art meets science, because there is always variation in animal behaviour.
The "hungry" ones should always change, because some cows will have laid down and ruminated where others strive to cram more in - do you notice this when you shift them?

Our calves are in much lighter condition, and much more variation/range as roughly ⅓ were kept at home, fed well and regularly drenched.
⅔ were sent to a grazier who struggled to feed them, so they mainly moped around bales and waited for better - it's going to be a huge challenge to get them all ready for mating but we will do our best

As Einstein said so well, "the theory decides what we can observe"
What do you use to drench calves with Pete? I have some yearlings coughing a lot, faecal sample was fine so vet advised ivermectin cause lung worm don't show up on the analysis. I am want to avoid though as we are converting to Organic. It was my own fault I set stock some heifers to keep away from bull, back in rotation now on 150 day rest being moved every second day
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20210918_191359.jpg
    IMG_20210918_191359.jpg
    609.6 KB · Views: 0

Samcowman

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cornwall
What do you use to drench calves with Pete? I have some yearlings coughing a lot, faecal sample was fine so vet advised ivermectin cause lung worm don't show up on the analysis. I am want to avoid though as we are converting to Organic. It was my own fault I set stock some heifers to keep away from bull, back in rotation now on 150 day rest being moved every second day
From what I have read. Ivermectin is the worst for if beetles with Cydectin being the least worst
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
From what I have read. Ivermectin is the worst for if beetles with Cydectin being the least worst
pleased to hear cydectin is the least worse, use it in all first year grazing calves, and reckon it's a great product ! But cowpats disappear quite quickly. Will also admit to worming, and fluking cows at drying of, that wormer would be a cheap ivermectin pour on, and l have concerns over using it, so do keep an eye on the how quick the dung takes to disappears, quite quickly. What are the alternatives though, with the dairy it's not practical to 'do' clean grazing. The calves go onto 1 block of land, away, so my thinking is as cydectin at turnout, that ground should be 'clean'. How long does the effect of ivermectin, last in the dry cows, we do tend to keep them yarded for a few days, how many days ?
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
pleased to hear cydectin is the least worse, use it in all first year grazing calves, and reckon it's a great product ! But cowpats disappear quite quickly. Will also admit to worming, and fluking cows at drying of, that wormer would be a cheap ivermectin pour on, and l have concerns over using it, so do keep an eye on the how quick the dung takes to disappears, quite quickly. What are the alternatives though, with the dairy it's not practical to 'do' clean grazing. The calves go onto 1 block of land, away, so my thinking is as cydectin at turnout, that ground should be 'clean'. How long does the effect of ivermectin, last in the dry cows, we do tend to keep them yarded for a few days, how many days ?
Withdrawal for meat with ivomec here is 51 days so it could be excreted for quite a while.

I want to say it was Steve Kenyon I seen talk about some sort of trial with dung and it was at least two weeks.
 

Samcowman

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cornwall
pleased to hear cydectin is the least worse, use it in all first year grazing calves, and reckon it's a great product ! But cowpats disappear quite quickly. Will also admit to worming, and fluking cows at drying of, that wormer would be a cheap ivermectin pour on, and l have concerns over using it, so do keep an eye on the how quick the dung takes to disappears, quite quickly. What are the alternatives though, with the dairy it's not practical to 'do' clean grazing. The calves go onto 1 block of land, away, so my thinking is as cydectin at turnout, that ground should be 'clean'. How long does the effect of ivermectin, last in the dry cows, we do tend to keep them yarded for a few days, how many days ?
Interesting that you worm your cows we haven’t and are advised by our vets that it’s unnecessary as they develop immunity with age and you can create problems with lungworm if you clear them out they then become naive and more susceptible to them. Which follows with what I saw after using a combination for fluke rather than trodax because it was cheaper. I would presume the simplest way for them to stop excreting wormer would be the same as the withdrawal but I imagine it is longer.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
while most of our farm is dry, we have 10 acres which is not, and fluke can be a problem, also those same fields, are quite important for grazing, so, cows run the risk. Worming, we buy in cows, they usually get a fluke/worm/magnet and min bolus, or, 'the works', perhaps that needs to be talked over with the vet, it's something we have always done, so just normal practice.
Minerals, we tend to bolus cows, at drying off, and preservice, seems to work well. Dry cow rationing is going to be absolutely spot on, this year, calcium is currently not available, so hope the mins help, we dont tend to get much m/fever, as a block, it's relatively easy to get the ration right.
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
I was but want to go to bed as its midnight :oops:
I havnt found any cons... on the modest area we have ... as such, its in a mix mind you and we are heavily stocked on it with the sheep most of the year.....
I'll get back to you tomorrow :sleep::)

Thank you! Have a good sleep mate
Its a bred variety called Barelite in a mix with Timothy amongst other bits and bobs I've used.
The Selling point is supposed to be better digestibility.( softer leaf i think im right in saying) than more natural TF.
I used it on an area that needed sorting out after having its top soil stripped and then replaced a few months later for a specific reason.
Was easy established mind you there was some meadow fes. In with it as well , that covers ground easily .
Was wet ground as well and for 6 months of the year high water table / surface standing water at times , seems to like all that sort of stuff. Robust in a word. :unsure:
I'll see if I can get a proper look at it in the next few days,as were busy hedgtrimming atm .
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Its a bred variety called Barelite in a mix with Timothy amongst other bits and bobs I've used.
The Selling point is supposed to be better digestibility.( softer leaf i think im right in saying) than more natural TF.
I used it on an area that needed sorting out after having its top soil stripped and then replaced a few months later for a specific reason.
Was easy established mind you there was some meadow fes. In with it as well , that covers ground easily .
Was wet ground as well and for 6 months of the year high water table / surface standing water at times , seems to like all that sort of stuff. Robust in a word. :unsure:
I'll see if I can get a proper look at it in the next few days,as were busy hedgtrimming atm .
Brilliant, thanks for that.
I see a lot of naturalised TF growing on verges, fields that used to be productive but were flooded due to rising water levels, and it always seems "big" and "ballsy" in those real "wet feet" conditions.
This area we're looking to titivate is about the only "flat" we've got, a flat topped ridge behind a row of trees, with a slope at each end, so if water is going to sit anywhere it's going to be here.

The main consideration for me is that whatever we drill there could be setaside for a while, it could be fed with fertilisers and it could be cut for hay, so I need something a bit better than "high sugars" or "top yield" - I need something versatile
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
What do you use to drench calves with Pete? I have some yearlings coughing a lot, faecal sample was fine so vet advised ivermectin cause lung worm don't show up on the analysis. I am want to avoid though as we are converting to Organic. It was my own fault I set stock some heifers to keep away from bull, back in rotation now on 150 day rest being moved every second day
Their owner supplies the drench - it's a combi, called "Eclipse" which seems to be the same drench all the dairy lads use.
Abamectin + Levamisole

I don't think there's a way around the lungworm thing aside from giving them the odd drench, unless you were to have a very complicated system that always provided youngstock with clean pasture (although our conventionally raised-on-mum calves are huge beacons of health compared to our grazing heifers, there is a lot more than free feeds they get from Mum).

What we basically have is a rotational grazing system with the same animals going round the round all the time, so we don't have the big old hoovers cleaning up after.
Or bale it up, those kinds of things really clean up pasture but we don't do all that.
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Their owner supplies the drench - it's a combi, called "Eclipse" which seems to be the same drench all the dairy lads use.
Abamectin + Levamisole

I don't think there's a way around the lungworm thing aside from giving them the odd drench, unless you were to have a very complicated system that always provided youngstock with clean pasture (although our conventionally raised-on-mum calves are huge beacons of health compared to our grazing heifers, there is a lot more than free feeds they get from Mum).

What we basically have is a rotational grazing system with the same animals going round the round all the time, so we don't have the big old hoovers cleaning up after.
Or bale it up, those kinds of things really clean up pasture but we don't do all that.
Vaccination is an option for lungworm.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 80 42.3%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 34.9%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 15.9%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,294
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top