"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Samcowman

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cornwall
View attachment 1000121can't claim credit for thinking of this myself I saw it on a webinar slide but thought it was such a blindingly obvious push to sell more I had to go and find the source and copy it for here. yara (fertiliser manufacturers and sales) reckon your optimum rate of nitrogen is 100kg per ha as in those black lines. But what they really mean is that's when the line stops going up it starts to plateau way before then at roughly where my red arrow is around the 50kg mark. Do they think farmers are stupid :unsure::cautious:
The webinar hosts did a much better more professional job than I did and had other graphs showing how much the extra dry matter would cost and they came up with 40kg of nitrogen being the optimum for growth/cost of nitrogen.
The exact same thing you have just pointed out was brought up at discussion group meeting this week. Alongside this one which was also quite interesting
2A611FB4-A92C-40A0-BB4E-D482D817E128.png
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
looking forward, N is probably useful, if targeted at fist cut, l think there is some correlation with N and grass protein, N helps protein in grass. We have had very good responses to sulphur, and going forward, we were going to use N + Sulphur, a rethink in progress.
While clover can/will produce enough N for grass requirements, it doesn't kick in early enough for 1st cut. Again, looking forward, to reduce reliance on purchased protein, 1st cut, in particular, needs to be high quality, in fact, all fodder needs to be high quality, but clover is on form then.
Now it is not beyond possibilities, that ag products, increase in value, so we can afford to buy expensive N again, that may well include politics, in that equation. But generally we will be looking hard, at early season growth. For protein in fodder, it may be that we need to look 'outside' the box, and grow separate, different crops, specifically, for protein, such as r clover, lucerne, or something entirely different, no doubt, we will be bombarded with alternative crops, probably by ex fertiliser reps.
It could be as simple as changing the quality focus from 1st cut, to later ones, or, as we say, arse about face. There is no doubt alternative measures will be worked out, because they have to be, or it's back to fertiliser. We are trying this balsana clover, which may, or may not, help, through it's earliness, time will tell, and other crops may help, we don't know.
Certainly farming is changing, and many of the chemical fixes, have to be questioned, as to we really need them, or not. The other point we have to realise, enough food has to be produced, to feed populations, and if farmers cannot produce enough, guvs will return to those chemical fixes, they have no choice, food will always win, over the environment, if it gets to that stage. The secret, is to avoid that dilemma.

Now, for the stupidest ag research result, of this week, confirms the longer a milking cow stays in a herd, the more profitable it is, wish they would pay me, to deliver pearls of wisdom, l could have told them 30 yrs ago ! The av milking cow, lasts 2.2 lacs, they were looking at 5.5 lacs, l would think anything over 2.2 would an increase profit, we are just under 5.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
The exact same thing you have just pointed out was brought up at discussion group meeting this week. Alongside this one which was also quite interesting View attachment 1000122
well, it is possible to farm without N, then, but, were they trial plots, or field trials, a big difference. As with my post, time of year, is important. But great to see, proper interest/actions are being done, it's quite vital, they are.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
@Rob Garrett Does the subsoiling give much benefit to grass growth and infiltration, how do u value the benefit
we have found subsoiling gives us a massive advantage, we pan very easily, not helped by modern machinery, behind the maize trailers, digging a hole, in the wheel marks, you could see the compaction layer beginning, on floatation tyres, not super singles, that field was s/s both ways, spring 19, and again partly, 20.
There are disadvantages, do we just create a deeper pan, for example, it's an extra job, and always the risk of catching pipes, or drains.
If we don't, the top 6/8 ins of soil, can turn into a concrete block, with AMG the prevalent grass. Surface pans are caused by heavy rain, onto finely worked reseeds, l have seen a ley fail to 'take', due to that, and poaching by several hundred cows hooves, why we cannot out winter on grass.
The other side of the coin, we have good, deep fertile soil, with plenty of topsoil, it just needs to be treated with care. Chicory, and other deep rooted herbs, could help considerably, next spring, will answer that, with the assistance of a spade.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
13/10
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28/11
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been quite a bit of growth in 6 weeks, will get into this once the heifers get back over this way, it will have had about 60-65 days by the time we get here?

Hoping to get 30 - 36 hours per acre, across 18 acres... 🤔 that will bump our 35-45 day rotation out to 60-70... and then repeat the performance to get out to the 5 month recovery I want to trial next (y)

I've actually had a couple of smaller scale trials running re the 150 day rotation and it really seems to hold up - bit daunting when it's your whole farm being "the trial" though
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
have managed to get in 6 cuts, before now, that is definitely costly, and the last cut, usually turns 'slimy' in the wrap. Our r/clover dominant, cut only ley, produced a protein range, 14.7 to 17.8%.
we over seeded that, with r/clover, this autumn, didn't put any fert on, for 4th cut, hoping it wouldn't be quite so quick to recover, to give the r/c time to get going, waste of time, it grew exactly the same, logical looking back, the r/c already there, provided the N !

There is the requirement to produce, good quality grass, for milk, and l am not sure 3 grazing's, in a year, would actually achieve that, we 'lost' milk, when the grass got ahead of the cows, this summer, pre mowing wasn't really an answer, although it re-set the grass, for the next round.

This is where l struggle with some principles, other than dry cows, both beef and milk, require good quality grass, within limits, the better the quality, the better the output. My opinion on this, is perhaps we should match normal grass growth, with stocking rate of cattle, or following natures growth curve. Once that curve has peaked, grass declines a bit, but clover/herbs then take over, and make management much easier - they don't go past it, quality wise.

It is spring growth, where things hit the buffers, fert use then, looks sensible, if treated like gold dust. Or it may be that as fertility improves, grass can utilise the natural N better, and spr growth can get going, earlier. Again, perhaps this can be altered by other plant varieties, balsan clover for example, or there are plenty of legumes, to select from.

We will find answers, as l said earlier, it might be as simple as 'reversing' the timing of use, relying on the clover content, later in the year, to obtain our rocket fuel silage ! Following 3 dry summers, we have pretty well reverted back to autumn calving, so reliance on spring growth, is still very important, plan is, to knock back the concentrate, and get the milk from grass, the only difference between, spr or aut calving, is you have had the bulk peak milk, before you turn out, and not relying on it, for peak yield.

As always, there are more questions, than answers, on this ###### thread. But, by exploring other routes, we are way ahead of many, who will run into a brick wall, this year, through rising input costs, esp fert, a point many, have yet to come to realise.
 

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
@Rob Garrett Does the subsoiling give much benefit to grass growth and infiltration, how do u value the benefit
Will let you know in the spring. Dug some holes, more difficult to get spade in than other fields, horizontal cracks when breaking, not many worms etc. Compaction.

I am trying to move the short term £ ROCE (return on capital employed) goalposts from annual to at least a 3 year mindset + the non financial measures, this has worked really well in my small arable rotation. Would love to do infiltration tests etc but I'm just not wired up that way!
 

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
have managed to get in 6 cuts, before now, that is definitely costly, and the last cut, usually turns 'slimy' in the wrap. Our r/clover dominant, cut only ley, produced a protein range, 14.7 to 17.8%.
we over seeded that, with r/clover, this autumn, didn't put any fert on, for 4th cut, hoping it wouldn't be quite so quick to recover, to give the r/c time to get going, waste of time, it grew exactly the same, logical looking back, the r/c already there, provided the N !

There is the requirement to produce, good quality grass, for milk, and l am not sure 3 grazing's, in a year, would actually achieve that, we 'lost' milk, when the grass got ahead of the cows, this summer, pre mowing wasn't really an answer, although it re-set the grass, for the next round.

This is where l struggle with some principles, other than dry cows, both beef and milk, require good quality grass, within limits, the better the quality, the better the output. My opinion on this, is perhaps we should match normal grass growth, with stocking rate of cattle, or following natures growth curve. Once that curve has peaked, grass declines a bit, but clover/herbs then take over, and make management much easier - they don't go past it, quality wise.

It is spring growth, where things hit the buffers, fert use then, looks sensible, if treated like gold dust. Or it may be that as fertility improves, grass can utilise the natural N better, and spr growth can get going, earlier. Again, perhaps this can be altered by other plant varieties, balsan clover for example, or there are plenty of legumes, to select from.

We will find answers, as l said earlier, it might be as simple as 'reversing' the timing of use, relying on the clover content, later in the year, to obtain our rocket fuel silage ! Following 3 dry summers, we have pretty well reverted back to autumn calving, so reliance on spring growth, is still very important, plan is, to knock back the concentrate, and get the milk from grass, the only difference between, spr or aut calving, is you have had the bulk peak milk, before you turn out, and not relying on it, for peak yield.

As always, there are more questions, than answers, on this ###### thread. But, by exploring other routes, we are way ahead of many, who will run into a brick wall, this year, through rising input costs, esp fert, a point many, have yet to come to realise.
How many fingers you using to type all them word's? Would take me a week!
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
How many fingers you using to type all them word's? Would take me a week!
one
but l have the 'luxury' of time, would much rather not, but we are, where we are, so never rushing off to the next job. I actually learnt to type 'properly' during my first long off work confinement, 20 yrs ago, when l could get back, l did, and lost the skill, perhaps l should relearn it now, but got quick with the one finger !
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
have managed to get in 6 cuts, before now, that is definitely costly, and the last cut, usually turns 'slimy' in the wrap. Our r/clover dominant, cut only ley, produced a protein range, 14.7 to 17.8%.
we over seeded that, with r/clover, this autumn, didn't put any fert on, for 4th cut, hoping it wouldn't be quite so quick to recover, to give the r/c time to get going, waste of time, it grew exactly the same, logical looking back, the r/c already there, provided the N !

There is the requirement to produce, good quality grass, for milk, and l am not sure 3 grazing's, in a year, would actually achieve that, we 'lost' milk, when the grass got ahead of the cows, this summer, pre mowing wasn't really an answer, although it re-set the grass, for the next round.

This is where l struggle with some principles, other than dry cows, both beef and milk, require good quality grass, within limits, the better the quality, the better the output. My opinion on this, is perhaps we should match normal grass growth, with stocking rate of cattle, or following natures growth curve. Once that curve has peaked, grass declines a bit, but clover/herbs then take over, and make management much easier - they don't go past it, quality wise.

It is spring growth, where things hit the buffers, fert use then, looks sensible, if treated like gold dust. Or it may be that as fertility improves, grass can utilise the natural N better, and spr growth can get going, earlier. Again, perhaps this can be altered by other plant varieties, balsan clover for example, or there are plenty of legumes, to select from.

We will find answers, as l said earlier, it might be as simple as 'reversing' the timing of use, relying on the clover content, later in the year, to obtain our rocket fuel silage ! Following 3 dry summers, we have pretty well reverted back to autumn calving, so reliance on spring growth, is still very important, plan is, to knock back the concentrate, and get the milk from grass, the only difference between, spr or aut calving, is you have had the bulk peak milk, before you turn out, and not relying on it, for peak yield.

As always, there are more questions, than answers, on this ###### thread. But, by exploring other routes, we are way ahead of many, who will run into a brick wall, this year, through rising input costs, esp fert, a point many, have yet to come to realise.
Yeah, what I have "learnt" as opposed to heard here is that we actually end up with really tough grass where the N is too high (like a urine spot), now that we're sorta getting longer periods in between harder grazings the grass although stemmy at the moment, it's still really soft and juicy stem and the stock are just waxing it

by the time it was similar height with the grazing we tried, "it would have blunted their teeth" which is mainly why my dairy neighbour is in the same predicament, can't quite see how to get over that hump from tall grass being rankish to tall grass being sweet (y)

we have sunk a lot of Carbon into the land all the same, with minimal removal of "stuff" whether meat or silage, I do know our farm business system with the not-really-needing-to-set-records is helping with getting us to the stage we can really regenerate the land without much fear of things going bang

the good thing about free grass and being paid for time is that it really helps shift the focus away from that "super quality" thing and be comfortable that cattle will get all the nutrition they want from whatever you put in front of them - getting a daily docket is great but it makes you panic the second day the litres are down, which is about 12 days before they would come up again. - I have a really cheap transition period compared to a dairy!
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
20211128_115529.jpg
20211128_115622.jpg

here's what's inside,, not quite enough fresh litter to go on with, and what was there has been mainly gobbled up.

So, immediately I'm thinking that it needs another fortnight to get that litter, it will have mostly all have another leaf going off by then.. which will help us feed a bit back in but without letting these stems get tough in the base, as we're not using cows this time around.

I also check the interplant or intertussock spaces to see what's popping up, and in the bottom pic there are a couple of wee meadowgrass tillers and a wee ryegrass one as well, I like to think that they will be about as long as the residual we leave so they get an equal chance of being king, it's those new plants we want - not just keep the old ones going
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
sums it up quite nicely.
To get surfing, you have to get over the wave first.

We didn't for a long time here but there is no real hurry, we were paying the bills and I really wanted to test things properly, what with all the hype about in at this much cover and out at this, or leaving long residuals and being back there every 10 days, I felt it is pretty inauthentic to set out to "be a regenerative grazier" and not test out all the theories

again, not such a leap of faith when you actually arrive at the most logical place and at the perfect time, having honed the context and sweated the financial plan etc - that's why even the guys who know holistic management inside out are "practicing it" and not applying it 🙂👍
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
how long do those old plants, actually live for ?
Uncle used to feed his CI herd, mowing grass, he dried out so quickly, it was one way of ensuring grass for them. They coped surprisingly well with it, milked well, and fertility was fine. That policy was forced to alter, as he bred up to holstien, they would not live, and milk, off that grass. That change led to more reseeding, and all year round feeding, then TMR etc. One of the pivots of spr calving, is match the cow, to the feed available. We should do more of that, our few remaining spr calvers, look rather sorry, stood next to a FH cow, yield is different as well.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I think grass, like cows, peak when you let them and wear out as you wear them out. It's actually really hard to age grass tillers but I'd like to know.

Small matter if every pasture gets a fresh round of new plants every year, just like a diary herd it's easier than selling up in the winter and buying new cows every spring 🙂

hence "planned grazing" can mean a plan that fails to deliver, unless you're actually putting a succession plan into the grazing plan

then it comes back to costings, what does it cost in animal "profit" if they regenerate the paddock, vs what does it cost if "I" regenerate the paddock with machinery and inputs (incl time)

this is an individual thing to work out because obviously profit/MS or litre varies on the time of year within a herd etc, however I see in most instances it's far cheaper to let the cows do it, even with higher producing herds and farms with above average profitability, unless there is a valid reason

we had a valid reason, it's easier to knock ⅙ of the area out for 5 months than run extra cattle for 5 months, and feck about with temporary electric fences while I'm busy . That will be different other years

See what I mean about "practicing" though, the moment you lock something in it changes, and if it doesn't change it's really just you didn't notice
 

Fenwick

Member
Location
Bretagne France
I'm not convinced, feels like a nuclear/sticking plaster option. Be interesting to dig a hole where you were grazing that tall Chicory, no compaction there surly?

I think you can get there using plants but I'm not working on the same timescale as nature.

One pass with the subsoiler to give the roots a headstart, and hopefully thats the only pass we'll do during my time here.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I think you can get there using plants but I'm not working on the same timescale as nature.

One pass with the subsoiler to give the roots a headstart, and hopefully thats the only pass we'll do during my time here.
It should give a long-lasting benefit if carried out at the right time of year. My little 90hp Same certainly grunts into it, but when I crossed the line into the field that had been subsoiled in the past, I could go twice as quickly

I had previously gone around with a proper pentrometer and discovered where the tight spots were, basically the banks with historically shallower roots and smaller plants still had a tight spot at 15-ish inches below the surface, but the rest of the fields were OK

Really brought home just how much of a force "fertility transfer" is within a regular rotational/ paddock grazing system,

- you see the damage around a gateway or tank and think "it's compacted", but the compaction issue is possibly actually at the far end of the field, in reality - one of those "we don't know what we don't know" things
 

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