"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
Quantity always has quality in it if it was grazed properly last time. I would say sheep would be fine, my mate Shane is out to about 100-120 days with sheep (behind a single wire I should add!) and this past couple of years they've sent better than 30% of lambs off the weaning draft, as good as the guys who have 'em licking dirt for a living.
Obviously depends on the sheep.
Some pasture is to "good"
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Can you explain what you mean and what you will do differently next time?

Edit, I think I know what you mean but surely getting the animals out ahead of the spring flush and slowing down for the second round means more grazed forage?
That's about right, if you are starting from not much. Because you need to graze ¼ the farm per week to feed them if the covers aren't there, it tends to follow that the covers still aren't there.

I would prefer to just keep pushing the big wedge around because it's so much safer than waiting for growth, a bit like standing at the checkout waiting for the dole to clear 🤣

to get the density to grow the feed to get the density, it's a paradigm shift,, but then all-grass-all-winter probably also is.

Luckily because we are in control of what's grazing, swapping 400kg heifers for 150kg ones in May effectively extends the rest period, provided we stick to the planned 20-week winter rotation we'll be fine as we have the moisture in the bank this summer

regarding the oats, yep I bought some off a mate to throw in the mixer,, surprises include triticale, wheat, barley, rye
other surprises from the subsoil-notill is that we stirred up quite a bit of groundsel and mallow and henbit, so it's quite colourful
 

DanM

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
West Country
Quantity always has quality in it if it was grazed properly last time. I would say sheep would be fine, my mate Shane is out to about 100-120 days with sheep (behind a single wire I should add!) and this past couple of years they've sent better than 30% of lambs off the weaning draft, as good as the guys who have 'em licking dirt for a living.
Obviously depends on the sheep.

Is the quality in the quantity, the first time you shut it up for 60 days (or more) though? Or is this something you have to build a pasture up to throughout a season or seasons?
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Some pasture is to "good"
Yes, about 95% of what I see out the window is unfit for purpose,, still doesn't slow them down much 🤣
most dairy farms are feeding silage now, they almost had enough grass but then they mowed it, chopped it, covered it to ensure it didn't happen - and now it's going back out 🤦‍♂️

can't beat a good education
 

bendigeidfran

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cei newydd
Quantity always has quality in it if it was grazed properly last time. I would say sheep would be fine, my mate Shane is out to about 100-120 days with sheep (behind a single wire I should add!) and this past couple of years they've sent better than 30% of lambs off the weaning draft, as good as the guys who have 'em licking dirt for a living.
Obviously depends on the sheep
Old saying about sheeps main enemy being another sheep and grass up to it's
ears.
The grass up to it's ears could be all wrong then?
 

Humble Village Farmer

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Essex
For me it's more about earlier turnout and more grazing days.

That's about right, if you are starting from not much. Because you need to graze ¼ the farm per week to feed them if the covers aren't there, it tends to follow that the covers still aren't there.

I would prefer to just keep pushing the big wedge around because it's so much safer than waiting for growth, a bit like standing at the checkout waiting for the dole to clear 🤣

to get the density to grow the feed to get the density, it's a paradigm shift,, but then all-grass-all-winter probably also is.

Luckily because we are in control of what's grazing, swapping 400kg heifers for 150kg ones in May effectively extends the rest period, provided we stick to the planned 20-week winter rotation we'll be fine as we have the moisture in the bank this summer

regarding the oats, yep I bought some off a mate to throw in the mixer,, surprises include triticale, wheat, barley, rye
other surprises from the subsoil-notill is that we stirred up quite a bit of groundsel and mallow and henbit, so it's quite colourful
Yes but if you graze a quarter of the area in week one, it should take longer to graze down the 2nd quarter, so your first round should be longer than 28 days and you can get up to 60 days after that surely?
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Is the quality in the quantity, the first time you shut it up for 60 days (or more) though? Or is this something you have to build a pasture up to throughout a season or seasons?
Depends how you graze it, if it is grazed at high density then it is alot better than low density + topped (+ fert?)

hence the "graze fast when it's growing fast" can really only go so well with a conventional paddock system, the density just doesn't get there in fast rotations because you'd be all day putting up fences, I know it seemed like that for me

low density grazing really is hard on things, and medium density is hard on the farmer as well - I said on @Hilly's cow thread that I wish I'd never learned 'rotational grazing' as it can be the worst of both worlds
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
the bit l struggle with, if you feed nice young fresh grass, and the cows give lots of milk, and runny shite.
so, if you feed them an older sward, as in stems/fibre, the milk goes down, but the shite slows down. As milk from grass, is the most profitable, it's quite a serious problem. Yet if you give them access to hay, it improves the whole thing, the middle ground.

Uncle used to milk channel island cows, on a very dry farm, basically feeding them 'nice' hay grass stage, and they both are, and milked on it, when changed to B & W, forget it, buffer feeding/quality grass, or little milk.

One of the reasons the jersey features in grazing rats ! There is a big move back towards 'yesterdays cows', the hol just doesn't tick the boxes. Grazing cows, are great at their job, but you need the right ground, lots of it, and lots of cows, not everyone can do that, but the same rule of thumb applies, quality in, quantity out. As l have said before, we try to leave a longer residual, but it is a very very tight line to follow, between eating, and rejecting. I suspect a lot of the problem, is breeding. We shall persevere, and will find a happy balance, one day.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Yes but if you graze a quarter of the area in week one, it should take longer to graze down the 2nd quarter, so your first round should be longer than 28 days and you can get up to 60 days after that surely?
With luck.. if you're understocked, maybe. I can see 28 days turning to 34 days, then maybe to 40 days... hardly pushing the boat out, if your pastures need 80+ days after heading out.... they just aren't gonna get it without some pain coming on somewhere.

And, it's never the stock that are put up against it, always the landscape. Grass gets tired of that, so then the land cops more abuse and just gets more tired - that's what I meant by the rotational grazing paradigm, it's heavily flawed in reality
 

Humble Village Farmer

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Essex
With luck.. if you're understocked, maybe. I can see 28 days turning to 34 days, then maybe to 40 days... hardly pushing the boat out, if your pastures need 80+ days after heading out.... they just aren't gonna get it without some pain coming on somewhere.

And, it's never the stock that are put up against it, always the landscape. Grass gets tired of that, so then the land cops more abuse and just gets more tired - that's what I meant by the rotational grazing paradigm, it's heavily flawed in reality
So does that mean I made a mistake making (poor quality) silage when my calves keep getting out, and should have just put them back later in the season?

Of course I wouldn't be feeding our poor quality silage now because I wouldn't have any. I think I'm better off financially because I will be turning out strong cattle in the spring rather than starting again. Farm is probably worse off though.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
So does that mean I made a mistake making (poor quality) silage when my calves keep getting out, and should have just put them back later in the season?

Of course I wouldn't be feeding our poor quality silage now because I wouldn't have any. I think I'm better off financially because I will be turning out strong cattle in the spring rather than starting again. Farm is probably worse off though.
regen farming is based on realising, that for every action, there is a reaction, you just need to try and make the reaction favourable to you, and your farm.

The world has come to a crossroads, and has a choice of roads to take. On one road climate change, another could lead to serious sabre rattling, and the last one, what's right for us, nothing we can do about that, that's politics.

If we can alter our farms to be profitable, without the 'chemical' fixes, we will be better off, mentally and financially, which is good for us, our little 'patch', and the environment. What more can we do ?
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
Old saying about sheeps main enemy being another sheep and grass up to it's
ears.
The grass up to it's ears could be all wrong then?
wet shitty grass that would be up to their ears was it stood up possibly isn't a good idea but if its a dry time it would do them well enough, at least it did ours in the dry of 2018, couldn't see the ewes when they went in but they looked great when they came out. I think I put some photos on this thread, it looked like stood up rough hay
 

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
So does that mean I made a mistake making (poor quality) silage when my calves keep getting out, and should have just put them back later in the season?

Of course I wouldn't be feeding our poor quality silage now because I wouldn't have any. I think I'm better off financially because I will be turning out strong cattle in the spring rather than starting again. Farm is probably worse off though.
Struggling to get my head round this one as well. If you had not made the silage but grazed/ trampled later to reduce your housed time, it means buying in silage, but not buying fert. maybe? Seems to be the dilemma of an all breeding stock system where you are trying to get end to end value i.e. sell calves as stores = less silage required.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
the bit l struggle with, if you feed nice young fresh grass, and the cows give lots of milk, and runny shite.
so, if you feed them an older sward, as in stems/fibre, the milk goes down, but the shite slows down. As milk from grass, is the most profitable, it's quite a serious problem. Yet if you give them access to hay, it improves the whole thing, the middle ground.
Perhaps if you fed them a slightly older sward all the time they would milk ok ? perhaps its the change that drops the milk and they need a fair time to adjust ? and anyway if you can grow the feed cheaper you don't need them to milk so well
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Perhaps if you fed them a slightly older sward all the time they would milk ok ? perhaps its the change that drops the milk and they need a fair time to adjust ? and anyway if you can grow the feed cheaper you don't need them to milk so well
more to do with changeable weather mucking it up. We try hard, but it's a very thin line. While we all know nice fresh grass, goes straight through, and we need to try and slow it down, which is fibre, or NDF, if it comes from grazing, past that line, milk drops, yet, if you put hay in a rack, they eat it quite happily, with out a big drop. We certainly lost a lot of milk, by pre-mowing, when the weather 'lost our place'. Not really sure why cows will reject grass, either grazed or premowing, yet happily eat the same stuff as hay, unless its sheer cussedness.

Just to throw another spanner in the works, higher fibre levels in a cows diet, increases methane production, while nice young non fibrous grass, reduces it. Sometimes l think we cannot win ! The important fact to realise, animals, or crops, respond directly to how both are fed, you cannot feed bad 'stuff' and get results, same with crops, less fert,= less yield. Currently feeding very good silage, and the cows are milking well, but feed costs are rapidly rising as well, ahead of milk price, if we hadn't got good silage, we would need to feed more conc, to balance, and that would wipe out any price increase, and leave us in a hole.

The same old argument, quality in, efficient out, has to apply, so not over sure, yet, quite how to tie it all in. Still reasonably happy, with taking a light quality first cut, before the smaller stock go out, and can even see an argument for keeping hfr replacements, in, for their 1st season, more about getting their weight right. And happy with multi cut silage, quick once over, and 35/40 day rest. Round bale silage, might take a back seat, £200 tax + vat, on silage wrap, will make a mark, as will the cost of disposing of it. Everything else relies on the clover producing what they say it can.
But the biggest 'if' for farming, rests on a megalomaniac being prepared to back down, and lose face, we can only hope he does.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
So does that mean I made a mistake making (poor quality) silage when my calves keep getting out, and should have just put them back later in the season?

Of course I wouldn't be feeding our poor quality silage now because I wouldn't have any. I think I'm better off financially because I will be turning out strong cattle in the spring rather than starting again. Farm is probably worse off though.
No such thing as a mistake, is there?

I would put it another way, if it costs X£ to make a tonne of silage, then lower quality silage is more expensive than higher quality silage on an energy/ nutritional basis

I would be more likely to just graze/mulch/cycle poorer quality forage due to the economics of "increasing the cost of low-value products",, even if that is the mission statement of agriculture, it still requires questioning
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
No such thing as a mistake, is there?

I would put it another way, if it costs X£ to make a tonne of silage, then lower quality silage is more expensive than higher quality silage on an energy/ nutritional basis

I would be more likely to just graze/mulch/cycle poorer quality forage due to the economics of "increasing the cost of low-value products",, even if that is the mission statement of agriculture, it still requires questioning
not so good fodder, is the most expensive to make, but sometimes, weather makes it unavoidable. But good quality, is the most economic, and everything in between !
Having said that, a lot depends on what you need, sometimes, bulk is all you need, eg dry cows. Everything else, responds directly to quality, and for some, high quality is essential.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
thinking on from above, store cattle, why should we 'store' them, surely the most economic way, is to feed them for growth, all the way through, after all, the younger they finish, the better it is, from environmental, methane, and pocket. Perhaps 'store' cattle is a hangover from the past.
Now that might rattle a few cages !!!!
 

onesiedale

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Derbyshire
Struggling to get my head round this one as well. If you had not made the silage but grazed/ trampled later to reduce your housed time, it means buying in silage, but not buying fert. maybe? Seems to be the dilemma of an all breeding stock system where you are trying to get end to end value i.e. sell calves as stores = less silage required.
...this is the dilemma of a dairy system and winter/spring grazing rounds as opposed to a stock rearing system.
The dairy system doesn't really allow for being flexible on stocking numbers through the year. Stock rearing is 'simple', you merely bring in or send off stock to suit
Of course put this in a UK scenario and you must account for TB movements too 🤷.
Maybe I just need a paradigm shift on these winter and spring rounds?
Got to admit, 365 days /year grazing our dairy herd really is the Holy Grail
 

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