Improving soils&farm for future Generations

[Old Spot]

Good thread.
It’s slow, previous generations have learnt and evolved a farming system that they believed worked for all the complex reasons.
Then someone ( maybe the next generation) tries to change that!
My experience is that no one is quite as intrenched as they seem.
In year 7 of no-till, livestock and mob grazing 4 years.
The soil is slowly improving, I am using less inputs (or I find myself intervening in nature less).
And ###ger me now my father understands it he makes useful suggestions

 

[mikep]

I just love the contradiction of threads like this, not disagreeing with the sentiment but the glaringly obvious disjoint from reality.
Firstly most seem to forget that it was the horrors of global war and the fear of starvation that was the cause of the huge increase in intensive agriculture. Knowledge of the downside was ignored especially in Europe as memories of tight belts was fresh in the minds. More food and cheaper led to recovery and prosperity, no one knew and few cared about any consequence, compare it to smoking if you like there were cranks that said it was dangerous but few wanted to believe them.
It comes full circle as the cranks are now mainstream and the headless chicken dance starts. There is pressure for an increase in organic farming but this is ridiculous as you consider the situation this would lead to. As soon as supply exceeds demand then the price would plummet and organic farms would go tits up over night. The greens who advocate this have no answers to this question as I have asked them many times how the poor can afford organic prices or should the organic premium go, answer comes there none.
Secondly the glibly advocated 'bring livestock back into arable farming' line. Yes it's an answer but one, if thought about, raises more problems. There are large areas of the UK that are suitable only for livestock production that would be laid waste, fine then they could be rewilded say some but that's not what the farmers there would say. Perhaps you are happy with another round of Highland clearances but many, myself included, would not be.
I would hazzard a guess that if I asked half a dozen in here what organic farming is I would get half a dozen different answers but how many are actually correct.
Legally organic farming is farming in accordance with rules set out by recognised organic bodies, there are several so even they can't agree what's what.
The planet is like a supertanker that is heading to disaster, sticking plaster cures are not of any use but what we cannot do is loose time steering the wrong way and certainly any rigid doctrine such as adherence to inflexible organic rules is wrong. A best of everything is the only way with a gradual reduction in inputs, I say I can use all the tools of the organic farmers but they can't use some of mine. Always remember that at present the only substitute for say glyphosate is diesel and lots of it. 20,000 people a year in the UK die early because of vehicle fumes and many more have permanent health damage. Not one proved death from glyphosate yet in fifty years.

 

[som farmer]

I take soil structure very seriously, and get laughed at, but we are not excessive users of fert, but are highly stocked, cash wise it costs very little to put soil structure and condition high on the list, but pay back is good, cant get rid of the docks and thistles though, still rely on sprays for that

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

IA best of everything is the only way with a gradual reduction in inputs, I say I can use all the tools of the organic farmers but they can't use some of mine.

Agreed. It needs an open mind though and so many folk lack that (I know I did)

20,000 people a year in the UK die early because of vehicle fumes and many more have permanent health damage. Not one proved death from glyphosate yet in fifty years.

How do you prove it though if the damaging effect is through distorting the gut biome?

 

[mikep]

Agreed. It needs an open mind though and so many folk lack that (I know I did)


How do you prove it though if the damaging effect is through distorting the gut biome?

Proof always comes with time and epidemiology. Asbestos, tobacco, DDT all showed up through population studies. None of the population studies has shown any blip with glyphosate. It may have some small effect somewhere but I think looking for damaging proof is like looking for the shooter on the grassy knoll it's there if you believe it.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Proof always comes with time and epidemiology. Asbestos, tobacco, DDT all showed up through population studies. None of the population studies has shown any blip with glyphosate. It may have some small effect somewhere but I think looking for damaging proof is like looking for the shooter on the grassy knoll it's there if you believe it.

Have you seen the reports from Zach Bush in the states?

And epidemiology only proves correlation, not cause. Often it cannot "control" for other factors.

 

[mikep]

Have you seen the reports from Zach Bush in the states?

And epidemiology only proves correlation, not cause. Often it cannot "control" for other factors.

If there's no correlation then no need to look for cause I would think. As I say if you believe in the gunman on the grassy knoll fine, some do, most (and the solid evidence) don't.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

If there's no correlation then no need to look for cause I would think. As I say if you believe in the gunman on the grassy knoll fine, some do, most (and the solid evidence) don't.

 

[mikep]

That, I'm afraid, just says what we all know pollution is eventually washed into the water where it can cause problems.
I know little of America but do believe that perhaps the poorest percentile of the population live around the Mississippi Delta and as we know the poor are also the least healthy because of poor diet and lifestyle. In the UK the deprived areas have a much lower life expectancy than affluent this is not glyphosate related but lifestyle.
Sorry I could well be proved wrong but earnest sounding people with emotive voices and music in the (rustic) background start ringing alarm bells for me saying short on evidence long on pathos

 

[jack6480]

Wow