Is a reseed always clean grazing

[Devil's advocate]

Usually for me a reseed is clean grazing, because it will be following at least 5 years of arable crops.

But if a old grass ley was grazed in the spring with dirty stock with worms & coccidosis in abundance. Then the field was sprayed off with roundup & direct drilled with new seeds. Surely the field would not be clean grazing, espcially with nematdrious & coccidiosis. I'm thinking of a sheep only farm of course.

I'm of the opinion that now Dursban is banned a fodder brassica or cereal breakcrop is a must in a reseeding programme. Am I wrong. I think it must be very hard for farmers on difficult land who only grow grass. Perhaps spring reseeding Autumn ploughed land is the only way to deal with leather jackets & frit fly etc?

 

[Kevtherev]

Yes I’m a firm believer in a break Crop between grass leys.
Cereal or brassicas work really well and give you chance to get on top of any weeds and level up the fields with cultivations.

 

[Great In Grass]

The build up of pests begins in a grass ley from it's third year.

There are a number of measures that can be taken to try and avoid pest damage.

Move to a spring re-seed when some pests are in a more dormant state, interest and orders for spring grass seed is quite buoyant (trying to beat the impending price rises may also be having an effect mind you).

An increased seed rate will also help with any seedling lose, the use of the best quality seed to ensure rapid establishment and early vigour helps too.

A brassica break will remove the food source of any soil borne pest.

Later in the year ploughing in July for instance can reduce Leatherjacket numbers by 50% and also by leaving 2 weeks between cultivations will give time for Corvids to attack any grubs.

Overseeding will carry more risk than previously, again by using a vigorous mix it will have a chance to get away while the pests feed on the existing ley, again increase the seed rate.

Before anything soil sample and correct any problems.

 

[Devil's advocate]

The build up of pests begins in a grass ley from it's third year.

There are a number of measures that can be taken to try and avoid pest damage.

Move to a spring re-seed when some pests are in a more dormant state, interest and orders for spring grass seed is quite buoyant (trying to beat the impending price rises may also be having an effect mind you).

An increased seed rate will also help with any seedling lose, the use of the best quality seed to ensure rapid establishment and early vigour helps too.

A brassica break will remove the food source of any soil borne pest.

Later in the year ploughing in July for instance can reduce Leatherjacket numbers by 50% and also by leaving 2 weeks between cultivations will give time for Corvids to attack any grubs.

Overseeding will carry more risk than previously, again by using a vigorous mix it will have a chance to get away while the pests feed on the existing ley, again increase the seed rate.

Before anything soil sample and correct any problems.

Of course I agree with 99% of that.

Dursban would not even help but wireworm after long term grass can be a right pain to nearly any crop. Now that lindane has been banned for 15 years. Really needs 4 years of cereals dressed with Deter to reduce the wireworm. Or is there an alternative? I do agree that Autumn ploughing & a late sowing at high seed rates would help. Cruiser dressed brassica seeds may be ok not sure?

 

[Great In Grass]

Of course I agree with 99% of that.

Dursban would not even help but wireworm after long term grass can be a right pain to nearly any crop. Now that lindane has been banned for 15 years. Really needs 4 years of cereals dressed with Deter to reduce the wireworm. Or is there an alternative? I do agree that Autumn ploughing & a late sowing at high seed rates would help. Cruiser dressed brassica seeds may be ok not sure?

I do very little cereal seed, does Deter and indeed Cruiser dressing have any effect on the likes of Wireworm?

 

[Devil's advocate]

I do very little cereal seed, does Deter and indeed Cruiser dressing have any effect on the likes of Wireworm?

Er, I thought so. But I'm just a farmer not Basis qualified agronmist. We tend to justify Deter & try to grow clean white crops to reduce wireworm in potato crops. Also always plough out grass after 5 years, although I agree 3 years would be better. Very long life cycle for most wireworm species.

 

[Great In Grass]

Wireworm long life cycle with ever increasing numbers year on year. I'll ask about the Deter.

There's always Maize Sonido dressed against Wireworm, no, thought so!

 

[Kevtherev]

@ollie989898 is the man to ask about deter

 

[Agrivator]

Usually for me a reseed is clean grazing, because it will be following at least 5 years of arable crops.

But if a old grass ley was grazed in the spring with dirty stock with worms & coccidosis in abundance. Then the field was sprayed off with roundup & direct drilled with new seeds. Surely the field would not be clean grazing, espcially with nematdrious & coccidiosis. I'm thinking of a sheep only farm of course.

I'm of the opinion that now Dursban is banned a fodder brassica or cereal breakcrop is a must in a reseeding programme. Am I wrong. I think it must be very hard for farmers on difficult land who only grow grass. Perhaps spring reseeding Autumn ploughed land is the only way to deal with leather jackets & frit fly etc?

No, it wouldn't be clean. The solution on an all-sheep farm would be to reseed as you say, but to cut and conserve the young grass (maybe two cuts) and then to graze it as clean grazing in the following spring.
I know cutting twice is not always recommended for a reseed, but heavy grazing in the following year will help it to thicken out.

 

[ollie989898]

It is better to do something besides grass to grass reseeding, for reasons mentioned above, but don't let wireworm put you off doing anything. The main risk is maize which has a very low seed rate- 40-50 seeds per metre but I have broken long term grass with maize many times and not used Poncho, Sonido isn't that effective and is harsh on the seed, that's a separate discussion.

You can grow forage brassicas or cereals, do what you want. I grew cereals behind long term grass many many times, I would always use Deter in that situation but I've grown crops without it.

Long term all neonicotinoid seed dressings, Deter, Sonido, the one for beet, it's all gonna be banned because they are such persistent substances, don't panic though because someone will bring another alternative to market, it is too lucrative not to.

If you are worried about frit fly, spray the grass off and keep it dead for 6 weeks before sorting the next crop, it meddles with their lifecycle and you will have far less of an issue then. Or as said plough it in the autumn and leave it until spring.

Leatherjackets are a different kettle of fish but ploughing kills a lot of em. I've seen people get away with spring barley put into old grass in the spring lots of times without any dursban so I'm not sure leatherjackets are a dead certainty in crops either.

I've also seen people pull grass leys out after 3-4 years and plant something without any obvious consequences, it is maize you need to be wary of growing in that scenario. Plant at a higher seed rate and drill slightly later when the ground is warm.

Cereals (300 seeds+ per metre) and grass leys (500-1000 seeds/m2) are far less susceptible to wireworm but when establishing stuff you do need to be careful when it comes to seed beds and slugs or birds. To dodge these pests you need to put everything else in the crop's favour so it can get away fast.

As for worm and coccidiosis burdens in new leys, I have no idea, maybe someone has done some research somewhere, not a massive issue anyway due to the ability to treat the animals medically?

 

[ollie989898]

No, it wouldn't be clean. The solution on an all-sheep farm would be to reseed as you say, but to cut and conserve the young grass (maybe two cuts) and then to graze it as clean grazing in the following spring.
I know cutting twice is not always recommended for a reseed, but heavy grazing in the following year will help it to thicken out.

Cut it all you want, be fine, just sow it heavier.

 

[Jim75]

It is better to do something besides grass to grass reseeding, for reasons mentioned above, but don't let wireworm put you off doing anything. The main risk is maize which has a very low seed rate- 40-50 seeds per metre but I have broken long term grass with maize many times and not used Poncho, Sonido isn't that effective and is harsh on the seed, that's a separate discussion.

You can grow forage brassicas or cereals, do what you want. I grew cereals behind long term grass many many times, I would always use Deter in that situation but I've grown crops without it.

Long term all neonicotinoid seed dressings, Deter, Sonido, the one for beet, it's all gonna be banned because they are such persistent substances, don't panic though because someone will bring another alternative to market, it is too lucrative not to.

If you are worried about frit fly, spray the grass off and keep it dead for 6 weeks before sorting the next crop, it meddles with their lifecycle and you will have far less of an issue then. Or as said plough it in the autumn and leave it until spring.

Leatherjackets are a different kettle of fish but ploughing kills a lot of em. I've seen people get away with spring barley put into old grass in the spring lots of times without any dursban so I'm not sure leatherjackets are a dead certainty in crops either.

I've also seen people pull grass leys out after 3-4 years and plant something without any obvious consequences, it is maize you need to be wary of growing in that scenario. Plant at a higher seed rate and drill slightly later when the ground is warm.

Cereals (300 seeds+ per metre) and grass leys (500-1000 seeds/m2) are far less susceptible to wireworm but when establishing stuff you do need to be careful when it comes to seed beds and slugs or birds. To dodge these pests you need to put everything else in the crop's favour so it can get away fast.

As for worm and coccidiosis burdens in new leys, I have no idea, maybe someone has done some research somewhere, not a massive issue anyway due to the ability to treat the animals medically?

Not quite the right attitude. Bovine is going to love you

 

[ajcc]

Plough old ley July, disc and broadcast brassicas for winter feed. plough again February broadcast spring barley and new ley. Bale it off as wholecrop silage next July and voila you have new clean grass ley established, you fattened your winter lambs and you have a heap of rocket fuel silage.

 

[Tim W]

The build up of pests begins in a grass ley from it's third year.

Not true for pests like cocci and parasitic worms the OP mentions ---they start immediately an animal is introduced to a ''clean ley''
In my experience within a year a new clean ley can have the same parasitic burden as old PP

 

[llamedos]

Dont know anything about your arable pests or treatments, but for a break crop prior to re seed, purely from a sheep grazing pov would chicory/clover mix not be better, they are both certainly better from a worm burden & lwg than grass.

Worth a read http://www.eblex.org.uk/wp/wp-conte...cattleandsheepparasites_0411-final-report.pdf

 

[JD-Kid]

Not true for pests like cocci and parasitic worms the OP mentions ---they start immediately an animal is introduced to a ''clean ley''
In my experience within a year a new clean ley can have the same parasitic burden as old PP

i'd have to look hard to find a write up that was saying even alot of eggs will handle working up ground and put in to grass or any crop low grazed there would be some worms in the newer grazeing
higher crops like rape etc etc the intake would be close to nill but if the animals already have worms they will still be efected and will shed on to semi clean ground
case in point put lambs on to rape and after 14 days did carla test show no responce IE no in take yet a FEC test showed they were loaded
so there feed intake due to higher grazeing showed no intake if they grazed a paddock hard that was grass based they would have a higher reacton to worm intake

 

[Great In Grass]

Not true for pests like cocci and parasitic worms the OP mentions ---they start immediately an animal is introduced to a ''clean ley''
In my experience within a year a new clean ley can have the same parasitic burden as old PP

You are right, I had in mind Wireworm & Leatherjackets.

 

[Devil's advocate]

Not true for pests like cocci and parasitic worms the OP mentions ---they start immediately an animal is introduced to a ''clean ley''
In my experience within a year a new clean ley can have the same parasitic burden as old PP

Yes Tim

Of course,although orange worming & then onto a proper clean reseed ie no sheep for two years, would reset the clock.

I'm in a lucky postion of 90 ewes on 180 acre with veg, hay making for pets/horses, potatoes & arable. But have often wondered how often sheep would have to be moved to new grass/fodder crops to manage without any wormer. Sort of new seeds & hay land some grazed early, some grazed as aftermath. I know practical only for dairy or arable farmers but could be done.

 

[Kevtherev]

 

[Bury the Trash]

(I think from memory ) there is some part of the tapeworm life cycle that is helped by moss being on the ground , so ploughing that in will help ......though i guess a good rip will air it up and dry up the moss also..........