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Is handling now permitted?

Discussion in 'Competition Ploughing' started by Ley253, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Howard150

    Howard150 Member

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Can anybody please tell me how misdirection of resources, lack of engineering skills, a rulebook which allows winners to be chosen, a network of judges compliant and extremely adept at applying said choices and a simple lack of talent, can be impacted on or influenced in any way by handling, thus giving a poor standing in World rankings.
    If absolute compliance with one aspect is required then the problem is very easily resolved - and resolved with very little conflict. Set a flag system up - yellow for a warning - red for any further transgressions.
    There are a lot of ploughmen out there who when in Rome do as the Romans do. That’s not forgetting the fact that if you were to dock offenders, (in the scruffy classes) then a lot of them would still win.
    High time to take the judges out of this argument. It is simply not in their remit. It is down to the stewards.
    I have also been about long enough to see some prize exhibits created by hands free lobbyists, by and large beyond redemption. Handling for a whole Week would not put some of this work to rights.
     
  2. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    Largely agree David but I dont like the warning bit. The warning is in the rules, and by the time one has been issued, the miscreant has gained an advantage. Bill Tonkin can build a crown by hand very quickly, and is not beyond offering violence to stewards at times.
    Handling does effect our showing at the top level. Up there, the plough has to do it all, and those who handle, dont have one that will, because they have never had to develop it, or the skills in its use, to that level.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  3. arcobob

    arcobob Member

    Location:
    Norfolk
    How do you expect a judge to award marks for work that was not produced with a plough and has been disfigured and manipulated out of all recognition?
    Where are the stewards training days? To say that judges should be taken out of the equation is not practical because the mere practice of handling is to deceive the judge. The sooner this gets straightened out the better because it is cheating pure and simple.
     
    Ray996, Sprayer and Ley253 like this.
  4. Ray996

    Ray996 Member

    Location:
    North Scotland
    Is there training days for stewards or is that just a novelty exercise at matches?there is judges training so why not introduce some guidelines for stewards !some steward just not got a clue what there looking for.
     
  5. Howard150

    Howard150 Member

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Whilst there is a great deal of validation in your post Harry, I still do not concur with the ‘easier to garden’ rather than the ‘sort your plough out’ faction. There is simply a void in the higher echelons which by and large has never been populated by the right people - an exclusive clique if you like. Whilst those in this neat little clique are not opposed to handling, indeed their ‘wives’ and offspring have at times aided and abetted, I still hold firm. This in itself is not the reason we are so poor in world rankings. Lack of skill is, as is lack of funding.

    With regard to abusive / violent behaviour then I need to backtrack. This is the one occasion where a Judge should take precedence over a Steward in terms of administering a penalty. If the judge has been abused either verbally or physically, then he should have the right to impose the penalty already in the rules for this transgression. The match organisers have also a duty of care for said judge and should support him accordingly. Any physical violence should be an automatic disqualification and the miscreant subjected to a ban. Sadly - as in all avenues of life then a bully will intimidate others who put up no resistance. It should not be nescessary but match organisers should ultimately not give control to those not able to stand up to intimidation. Where they do, then they are simply giving the bully free rein to do as he pleases. Sad really that a person willingly giving up his free time should ever be abused by other participants in the same pastime. No vindication for a bully but match organisers should take care not to give control to a judge who would be out of his depth. Judges as ploughmen, have different levels of skill and capability.
     
    Pennine Ploughing and Ray996 like this.
  6. Fergie Ploughman

    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    Reminds me when a well known trailer ploughman, large in stature, won a gardening set on the raffle at the end of the match, he posed for a photo with them as well!
     
  7. Fergie Ploughman

    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    Sorry, just seen this as I replied to another post! He actually won it on the raffle
     
  8. very well said, all the rules are there in place, and as said,
    Any abused either verbally or physically, then automatic disqualification,
    the problem lies with the match organizers, and good stewards are a must
     
    Howard150 likes this.
  9. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    easier to remove the stewards from the firing line, apart from perhaps one, as a "go to" in case of problems, there is no need to identify the others, and being "in plain clothes" they would be far more effective. Issuing them with cheap cameras would be a good move, then they would have evidence to present if required.
     
  10. your really having a laugh now Harry, cameras, plain clothes you been watching to much Boddy and Doyle,
    Whats wrong with a good old fashioned fine upstanding man with some backbone and that knows a bit about ploughing,
    they call them a Steward, and it is their job the Police the cheats,
    and they can give them oh what you call them,,,,,,,, Yes Penalty points
     
  11. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    All good in practice, but this is real life. All too often the steward is elderly, and press ganged by the committee, or a student on day release, neither of whom are going to want to be sticking their necks out. And far too often, you get this. At yeovil last year, the stewards were having a nice cuppa and chat with the chairman.I had already mentioned the lack of any stewards on the world style plots to the sec, and she was less interested than a nearby tractor tyre! I then approached the chairman's little gathering and asked if perhaps they could walk up to our class and continue the meeting, or perhaps adjourn till after the match, and in the mean time, go and do their job! By now, all eyes were on the correct area, and the miscreants were observed carrying clods from one place to another, and using the metal plot marker to tidy up furrow joints.No less than five stewards and the chairman witnessed this, but nothing was done because "if we penalise them, they wont come next year"! Well, they may well have the favoured two (who finished first and second) but they wont have two and maybe three of the others!
     
  12. well there you have your answer
     
  13. Dealer

    Dealer Member

    Location:
    Shropshire
    We all have an answer to it, if you that bothered about it take a video on your phone pay a fee and lodge a complaint with the organisers

    I ploughed next to a guy at a match in Stafford in the spring a stood toe to toe and called him am effing cheat. Spent more time off the tractor than on it a had to wait an hour before I could plough against his start.

    His response was that's how it's done in Yorkshire

    I told him flock off back there then

    And he did get 2nd place but did not stay for the presentation

    Pointed out his misdemeanours to the steward who looked at me like I had come from Mars and said what can he do about it..

    Drove home feeling I was the one on the wrong for speaking out.
     
    arcobob, MrNoo and Fergie Ploughman like this.
  14. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    I made a complaint about one of the afore mentioned at Mendip some years ago. They pushed him down to second, pleasure was not evident on his face! He had in mind that it was a certain ploughman, not myself, when this ploughman was walking in front of the unhappy ones lorry, he tried to drive over him!
     
  15. Howard150

    Howard150 Member

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Taking the law into your own hands is hardly the way to go. Neither is taking pictures to police what is after all the match organisers responsibility. Vote with your feet and don’t go if you feel so strongly about things.
    All this kind of behaviour does is to lower the standard of work. Your own plot is the only one you have influence over. Use that influence - don’t squander it on somebody else’s plot. While ever you are concerned with what others are doing, you are not concerned enough about what you are doing.
    Policing the job might well get people disqualified. It will not however improve your work or make you a better ploughman. Whether it will cause division within the movement is another story altogether.
    Unless it comes from the top you are fighting a loosing battle. What’s that you say? Surely you are not suggesting those in the higher eschelons are more adept gardeners than anybody? Are you?
    There is only one ethos to hold with this argument - given to me years ago by a certain ploughman of great repute who shall remain nameless. Suffice to say his name has a humorous connotation. ‘Make sure your work is so far in front of anything else that no one else’s work comes remotely near. Make sure your work is so far in front that judges are unable to do you down’
    Bear that in mind and handlers become of very little consequence.
     
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  16. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    All good in theory, but wont work in practise, at least, in the top classes.If I applied your "Vote with your feet" suggestion, I would have no where to go, other than FFF&B.All Yorkshire, Hereford Devon and Somerset matches are infected!
    Then add to that the act that competitors are I believe of a much more common standing than they were in the afore mentioned experts day, so the finger work does make a difference, and it is almost imposable to get so far in front these days, as to make it meaningless.
    The rot does permeate down from the top, the chairman, one adviser and the chosen vintage coach of a year or so ago, are all accomplished "Patta Cake" merchants, but as they all do it, to them its just "gamesmanship," and not really of importance.
    Stewards do need to be "in plain clothes" first to give them protection from the more aggressive competitors, and secondly, if they cant be seen, there is always the thought that the old man leaning on his stick , may be watching you with a little more interest than that of just a spectator!
    Photographs? Yes, Digital cameras are cheap and simple now, and a photograph of the transgression taken by the steward will remove all room for argument.That would be another level of protection for said steward.
    Knowledgeable stewards are rarer than hens teeth, and need all the protection you can give them, these days not every competitor is a gentleman!
     
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  17. arcobob

    arcobob Member

    Location:
    Norfolk
    Breaking the rules intentionally is taking the law into ones own hands. Nobody has mentioned self discipline in these matters. Why pass the burden onto somebody else?
     
    spindle likes this.
  18. cb387

    cb387 Member

    Location:
    Glos
    Handling is the sign of a bad ploughman, bad loser, or both
     
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  19. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    Its nice to think that way, but ,sadly its not true. Most of the top men are avid handlers, the plough off reads like a "Who`s Who" of rule breakers.
    The discipline is embodied in the will to win, sadly, at any cost, be it by handling, moving markers etc.
     
    Howard150 likes this.
  20. Howard150

    Howard150 Member

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    As one who has visited Rome on several occasions, and whilst there done as the Romans. I am also a regular visitor to the realms of the Luddite and plough there willingly - not even kicking ends over - which some people championing the cause of hands free are apt to surreptitiously do. Let’s not forget the bit about him having no guilt casting the first stone.

    Sorry CB but the grain of truth in your generalisations would lead to starvation of epic proportions.
    There are many superbly gifted ploughmen apt to handle so said point about bad ploughmen is a poor generalisation. Handlers are generally ploughmen (sometimes relatives of ploughmen) and by that token can be good or bad ploughmen.
    The next point of elephantine proportions is the bad loser bit. Some legendary bad losers are not known to be handlers whilst some can be both. Not all handlers are bad losers, simply trying to minimise their probability of losing.
    There is also as according to the great Arlo Guthrie “a third possibility they hadn’t even counted on’ and in this instance is the fact that some handlers take a great deal of pride in their work and that’s why generally it is straighter, more uniform and pleasing to the eye.

    Speaking of Arlo Guthrie, there is a great parallel with Harry adroitly shopping his fellow ploughmen, digital camera in hand. Arlo Guthrie made a record about having dumped some rubbish from Alice’s Restaurant from the back of his red VW Microbus.(fly tipping but the dump had been closed on thanksgiving) He was summoned, tried and found guilty of “littering” As evidence, the prosecution had 27 8x10 coloured glossy pictures, with circles n’ arrows an’ a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was, to be used as evidence against him.
    But that’s not what he came to tell us. He came to talk about the draft (American national service at the time of Viet Nam) The upshot of it was that having been convicted of a felony - littering - he was considered not moral enough to join the army and go on to burn women, kids, houses and villages.
    Are you saying handlers are not moral enough to be prizewinners Harry or is it just that their moral compass is just on the sinistral side of North.

    Joking apart and very much as I saiid earlier, this has to come down from the top and through the management route. Wherever systems are in place with flags and warnings then 99% of ploughmen will toe the line - unreservedly. Shopping fellow ploughmen creates division, bad feeling and has a markedly bad impact on the photographers ploughing. Life is far far too short. Just get out there and plough. Leave the rule application and policing of it to the Organisers as they see fit. Don’t forget - any society can impose their own rules and apply them however they see as appropriate. Even this is flawed to a degree. Whilst some Societies abhor handling by vast proportions, they see no wrong in slipping a visiting ploughman a 3 or a 4 for general appearance in order for their local hero to win. Please bear in mind. However aggrieved or wronged you may feel in the lower orders, it’s a lot lot tougher at the top for those apart grom the chosen few.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
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