Is handling now permitted?

[Howard150]

The way to stop it is peer pressure

If most of the field let it be know that handling is cheating then eventually if the dont,s outdo the do,s then it will stop

The biggest concern is new entrants, if they see it as the normal then they join in and it just continues

I ploughed at Lichfield 2 years ago and a sign on the stewards tent with no handling yellow and red cards employed

Only one yellow card issued and very little handling was evident

We have all picked the odd bit of stubble and although against the rules probably does not make much difference to the plot

I would suggest a time frame for starts to be finished akin the opening splits as most handling is seen on the crowns not middle work.

As for local matches with poor stewarding then a simple memorandum to judges to say deduct points for infringements when seen, does not even need to be written down

Just a lower score than would have been given

I play golf and it's policed by yourself and you playing partners to call penalty,s against the rules and done as a natural course.

To take the view that it's down to SOP when they don't run local matches is unachievable

Or change the rules to say anything goes and the best handler is given an advantage.

At the end of the day it comes down to integrity if you are comfortable with what the rules say is cheating then you should be comfortable when called a cheat and any reputation that goes with it.

More questions than answers Rob. Don’t be surprised if peer pressure worked in the opposite direction at some matches. A lot of people are fed up of hearing about it.

You have though given the answer. A card system pure and simple is all that’s needed and according to your dialogue - actually works. Economical in terms of personnel as only 1 Steward could police the whole match. More importantly the onus is firmly on the organisers - very much where it ought to be.
No argument. If the competitor does not want to accept the card system as advertised on the stewards tent they do not have to plough. It’s up to them.
Golf is a different game. OK so there are competitions and tournaments but by and large people are just out for a round - not competing to qualify or to win a coveted cup. Perhaps there should be a How Did I Do Page for ploughmen.

 

[Dealer]

Golf analogy is not a lot different, I have played at a reasonable level representing my club at County level many times, as for not playing for the converted trophy I would suggest to win the open championship is slightly more prestigious than wining the classic open at York.

The point was self regulation and personal integrity.

Perhaps the card system is the way but will only become universal if adopted by the governing body and written into the rules.

At the end of the day it's a ploughing match with each competitor abiding by a set of rules, as with any laws it relies on the individual to recognise them and adhere to them, if they don't then 2 things need to happen

1 you need a policeman.

2 you need negative consequences

Without the 2 above the rules are meaningless and lead to argument or worse.

Unfortunately names on cups stay forever and don't record if won by fair or foul.

If handling is part of the sport don't call it a competition. Call it an exhibition

The point of it all is surely to find the best ploughman of the day using tractor and plough through his acquired skill, not who is the best at hiding his weaknesses through handling and treading.

My view is if a well decorated ploughman was handling consistantly I would conclude that he has cheated his way to success.

And that his achievements held in disregard.

As for how did I do

Yes I think it would be a great tool but not sure how you could measure the data.

 

[Howard150]

Golf analogy is not a lot different, I have played at a reasonable level representing my club at County level many times, as for not playing for the converted trophy I would suggest to win the open championship is slightly more prestigious than wining the classic open at York.

The point was self regulation and personal integrity.

Perhaps the card system is the way but will only become universal if adopted by the governing body and written into the rules.

At the end of the day it's a ploughing match with each competitor abiding by a set of rules, as with any laws it relies on the individual to recognise them and adhere to them, if they don't then 2 things need to happen

1 you need a policeman.

2 you need negative consequences

Without the 2 above the rules are meaningless and lead to argument or worse.

Unfortunately names on cups stay forever and don't record if won by fair or foul.

If handling is part of the sport don't call it a competition. Call it an exhibition

The point of it all is surely to find the best ploughman of the day using tractor and plough through his acquired skill, not who is the best at hiding his weaknesses through handling and treading.

My view is if a well decorated ploughman was handling consistantly I would conclude that he has cheated his way to success.

And that his achievements held in disregard.

As for how did I do

Yes I think it would be a great tool but not sure how you could measure the data.

Overcomplicated by far Rob. Organising Society as Judge Jury and Executioner. Gather the cards up at the end of the match. Job done. End of.

Human nature is to stretch the rules. Short sharp remedies are universally successful. Policing by peers leads to nothing other than tears and bad feeling. Policing by the society means go or don’t go. Simple as that.

In our modern world, peer pressure is there to a degree but speeding and drink driving still exist regardless.

As far as How Did I do goes for ploughing then it’s probably a non starter. Like it or not golf is a first past the post with the most successful at getting the ball down the hole as winner. Looked into it a few years ago after my son won through to a National How Did I Do golf final held in Portugal. There is however a Grampian Supermatch held in Scotland which from an outsiders point of view seems by and large very successful

I have for years said that qualifying for the Nationals should be on a league table basis with ploughmen having to have ploughed at 3 qualifiers before they are eligible to attend the national. Judging at ploughing matches is based on a personal opinion and not first past the post and is as such subject to the vagaries of human nature. Winners are chosen with some of those at the top of the tree being the worst offenders. As such the current system of qualifiers is a nonsense.

All food for thought.

 

[Dealer]

I ask the question of you as a judge

When are judging and you see handling by a competitor and one that does not next to him with similar work would you reward the law abider over the law breaker.

As for answers who knows

If there is no will to to find one then one won't be found.

 

[Ley253]

Judging is by personal preference. Oh yes, and it should not be! It should be on how close to a set standard the work is. That gets rid of the local ideas. Look at the Judges and competitors briefing for the world in Denmark, no personal preference counting there.

 

[Ley253]

I ask the question of you as a judge

When are judging and you see handling by a competitor and one that does not next to him with similar work would you reward the law abider over the law breaker.

As for answers who knows

If there is no will to to find one then one won't be found.

Judge will judge what he sees, He has no concern for how its achieved, that is the stewards job. Often the plots are finished before the judges appear, so they wont see what goes on in any case.
But, all this has been said before, and until there is a governing body with teeth which its prepared to use, the rot will infect more and more, and the youth element will vanish as they will get fed up being wiped out by a constant rule breaker, and find something else to do.

 

[Howard150]

I ask the question of you as a judge

When are judging and you see handling by a competitor and one that does not next to him with similar work would you reward the law abider over the law breaker.

As for answers who knows

If there is no will to to find one then one won't be found.

Strictly by rule of law, it is nothing whatsoever to do with the judge and is part of the stewards remit. The answer is already found and lies within the card system. It simplifies the issue down to black and white. There is no grey area. To be fair a judge has enough to do without being a Steward. Taking the law into your own hands is exceeding your remit in no uncertain terms. There is of course nothing to stop a judge admonishing a ploughman for handling. Similarly if just a few sticks of stubble have been removed it will not always be readily apparent. It is still however handling.

All done it at some time even if it’s only a stick of stubble is a commonplace throwaway comment, as are pretending to adjust skimmers and kicking ends over. Sorry but card systems are the way forward. Probably more fairly imposed by a local steward not knowing the ploughmen than a judge prone to favouritism.

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

Strictly by rule of law, it is nothing whatsoever to do with the judge and is part of the stewards remit. The answer is already found and lies within the card system. It simplifies the issue down to black and white. There is no grey area. To be fair a judge has enough to do without being a Steward. Taking the law into your own hands is exceeding your remit in no uncertain terms. There is of course nothing to stop a judge admonishing a ploughman for handling. Similarly if just a few sticks of stubble have been removed it will not always be readily apparent. It is still however handling.

All done it at some time even if it’s only a stick of stubble is a commonplace throwaway comment, as are pretending to adjust skimmers and kicking ends over. Sorry but card systems are the way forward. Probably more fairly imposed by a local steward not knowing the ploughmen than a judge prone to favouritism.

I totally agree with the above, the Judge is there to Judge, not to steward, and really the Judge has plenty to do. when they can have upto 20 odd plots to judge

As for local matches with poor stewarding then a simple memorandum to judges to say deduct points for infringements when seen, does not even need to be written down

this is a non starter, as this would then give the judge an excuse to put the man he wants to win in to 1st place,
and if anybody complained at coming 2nd or 3rd, the judge could say he deducted points for handling,
and who can prove him wrong ?

we have a flag system at our match, yellow for a warning, red for penalty points, all told before the start at giving plot numbers out, so all are fully aware of this system,
handling is very little indeed, and as soon as the first yellow flag it put in a plot crown,
news travels very fast, and it totally stops all handling,
a card system is not a visible for other competitors, as the flag system, its there fore all to see

 

[Tonym]

To an outsider or anyone thinking of taking up ploughing all these comments can do nothing but harm for the image of match ploughing. Reading through these comments from the top we have a society that is corrupt, the judges are biased, the stewards are either non existent or do not know what to do or give a toss and a majority of competitors who are cheats. Other than this it is perfect.

The rules are already mostly in place the problem is they need upholding which will not be a very popular job. Each class needs a steward or more than one for larger classes (and probably an armed minder) on the headland during ploughing. Not going to be a very easy post to fill.

Most of the handling takes place during the start and the finish. If plots were judged on the split, and then on the first 3/4 furrows of the start and a strict time limit imposed after which your plot was not judged and no points awarded for that aspect there would be no time for any serious handling to take place and any manipulation of the furrows after judging would leave tell tale footprints for all to see . Similar for the finish by judging at the stated end time.

Not only would it deter the serious handler it would also mean match results would be out sooner and we could all go home earlier instead of gathering round for the results and waiting for some Ploughmen (usually the worst offenders) to finish their plot and then end up in the prizes.

 

[Roy Stokes]

To an outsider or anyone thinking of taking up ploughing all these comments can do nothing but harm for the image of match ploughing. Reading through these comments from the top we have a society that is corrupt, the judges are biased, the stewards are either non existent or do not know what to do or give a toss and a majority of competitors who are cheats. .

My sentiment exactly, for Christ sake give it a rest or find another hobby.

 

[Dealer]

It is exactly like that tho. Lol

Remember not to complain the next time you lose to the Percy thrower society gang...

 

[Howard150]

My sentiment exactly, for Christ sake give it a rest or find another hobby.

Eyup champ - and a very happy if somewhat belated new year to you too on here as well!

 

[llamedos]

Now, I hope you ploughing boys don't mind me sticking my oar in here. I'm just a simple shepherd, who regularly looks in here, 'cos I admire a bit of good ploughing. You're quite welcome to tell me to fudge off back to Livestock and Forage if you like
To be honest, I can't believe what I'm reading - all this talk about gardening or handling or whatever you want to call it.
Surely the Ploughing Society (Society of Ploughmen??) has rules?
If it has rules, then why doesn't it have the rubbish to enforce them?

Do you guys pay a sub to it? If you do, IMHO you don't get your money's worth, however much it costs a year.

A couple of months ago, I seem to remember reading on here that somebody's plough had been sabotaged at the National Match in Somerset - FFS what's going on?

Seems like your sport is full of crooks It's a real pity 'cos you guys read like a bunch of decent blokes who freely give each other, and those less experienced guys who come here, plenty of free advice and tips in order to promote your very worthy pastime.

Just sayin'

Have you got a death wish
Don't worry, I will help you back to L&F much safer there.
I reckon Gove will sort them all out, and they will be attending drilling matches soon enough

 

[Howard150]

Have you got a death wish
Don't worry, I will help you back to L&F much safer there.
I reckon Gove will sort them all out, and they will be attending drilling matches soon enough

Eyup Llamedos and a very happy if somewhat belated new year to you too! Least it’s better than havin’ to help him back to A&E cos it’s not really a safe haven there! - unless you have a few spare hours you need rid of......

There are just as many tales horror relating to livestock judging as there are about ploughing. Personal opinions and not first past the post so all you stockfarmers should be no strangers to controversy

 

[llamedos]

Think we may be safer in A&E than straying into the deep furrows here

Happy new year to you and yours too.

 

[Howard150]

Think we may be safer in A&E than straying into the deep furrows here

Happy new year to you and yours too.

....an off we go again - depth or lack of it - being another very contentious issue

 

[yellowbelly]

There are just as many tales horror relating to livestock judging as there are about ploughing.

 

[llamedos]

Here you go, time to retire

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/lamma-2018.205524/page-2#post-4679640

Kverneland 2500 i-plough to automatically straighten furrows!

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

Here you go, time to retire

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/lamma-2018.205524/page-2#post-4679640

Kverneland 2500 i-plough to automatically straighten furrows!

no sorry that is against the rules

 

[Howard150]

Here you go, time to retire

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/lamma-2018.205524/page-2#post-4679640

Kverneland 2500 i-plough to automatically straighten furrows!

Eyup just thee od on there........ joking apart though - if you read through all the posts on here then it’s not so much the ploughing that needs straightening out - more the folk!

So retirement as far away as ever and most on’us have the required technology inbuilt rather than needing to have KV lighten our wallets for the pleasure of having it.