Is handling now permitted?

[Howard150]

Indeed your scenario certainly would happen, no argument at all there. Mine ,however could also take place, in that the photo would be available for further examination, by people with a less slanted view than other competitors, which would balance things.
In your area the handling may not be having any real effect, down here the story is different, the two major offenders work as a team,one distracts the steward while the other plays sandcastles! And handling is not all they get up to,plot markers have been known to take a walk for example and their efforts do have a bearing on results, and I have heard the elder being abusive to a judge who had marked him down at a previous match.

Yorkshire Disease now seeming to pale Into insignificance. New title required whether it be mainly confined to an area south of the M4 or more wide ranging to cover an area south of the M6. Comments please but for starters Southern Counties Disease.

No excuse whatsoever for abusing either officials or fellow competitors but what your post does put under the spotlight is the bad feeling shopping fellow competitors causes. There is - made quite clear in the penalty deductions - an item for abuse of officials or fellow competitors. In real terms then shopping fellow competitors could be classed as abuse - definitely an abuse of the officials by insinuating they are not doing their job correctly. Again - an issue easily resolved. 20 points off for the first offence. Whether or not to disqualify for the second offence being up to the organisers. If that’s not sufficient then send their entry back the following year.

One of the more serious consequences of taking the law into ones own hands is that some people tend to jump on the bandwagon in order to boost their own score/position. Pointing out other competitors mistakes to judges is another act of low cunning that needs to be addressed. Some are veritable masters at it.

 

[Howard150]

David, Roy, please do look at things properly. All there is there, is a photo of a man carrying a fork. Like it or not, thats it.Fork is not in the ground, or on it. Hole is in unploughed land, which is legal, though then there is no evidence of the fork having made it.
David,regarding the previous years match, your memory is even more selective, I presume your referring to the time my plough jumped out of the ground. That day, things happened so quickly that I had no time to stop, the plough was out and back in before I could react. I did go and look for said stone, in case it was still in the way of the next run, no crime there, and I was entitled to pull it up, and put it by the damage to show the judges what had happened.Rectify things? Just how could that be achieved? Perhaps I should have gone up to the headland, ploughed out a bit too far, and carried the end furrows down and used them as a patch.
All the vitriol being poured over my head leads me to believe that perhaps some form of real enforcement is not quite so welcome in some quarters.The efforts being made here to intimidate myself, could be used to do similar to any steward. If said steward had a photograph. his position would be much stronger.

No malice intended Harry but not a lot of effort went into stopping halfway down the second pair.

Just a small point but by your reckoning...... rectified as it happened before the plough has passed fully through is ok (in unploughed ground). Whatever you do after the plough has passed through is nothing other than handling and ought to be penalised accordingly!
Needless to say the stone should be left in view of the judge.

 

[Ley253]

Yorkshire Disease now seeming to pale Into insignificance. New title required whether it be mainly confined to an area south of the M4 or more wide ranging to cover an area south of the M6. Comments please but for starters Southern Counties Disease.

No excuse whatsoever for abusing either officials or fellow competitors but what your post does put under the spotlight is the bad feeling shopping fellow competitors causes. There is - made quite clear in the penalty deductions - an item for abuse of officials or fellow competitors. In real terms then shopping fellow competitors could be classed as abuse - definitely an abuse of the officials by insinuating they are not doing their job correctly. Again - an issue easily resolved. 20 points off for the first offence. Whether or not to disqualify for the second offence being up to the organisers. If that’s not sufficient then send their entry back the following year.

One of the more serious consequences of taking the law into ones own hands is that some people tend to jump on the bandwagon in order to boost their own score/position. Pointing out other competitors mistakes to judges is another act of low cunning that needs to be addressed. Some are veritable masters at it.

I agree whole heartedly with the 20 off for the first fingerprint, and yes competitor vis competitor bad feeling is generated, even if its a written protest! But abuse of the officials? Doubtful, as if there had been any, doing their job, no protest would have been required That one was required is confirmation of their invisibility! Returning entries is one of the things suggested to Yeovil society when their chairman asked what could they do.

 

[Ley253]

No malice intended Harry but not a lot of effort went into stopping halfway down the second pair.

Just a small point but by your reckoning...... rectified as it happened before the plough has passed fully through is ok (in unploughed ground). Whatever you do after the plough has passed through is nothing other than handling and ought to be penalised accordingly!
Needless to say the stone should be left in view of the judge.

No effort at all, plough was out and in again too quickly! The plough had not passed through, it had passed over, I was very surprised to find I still had all of it on the tractor, really thought that was the end of the days activities.It jumped completely clear of the ground. I went and looked for the stone, but couldn't find it, so left things as they were, it wasn't going to cause a repeat performance next time up that side
Did you notice the parked little red tractor next door, and what the driver was up to?

 

[Roy Stokes]

Did you notice the parked little red tractor next door, and what the driver was up to?[/QUOTE]

Reckon you won't be invited back to Doncaster now Harry !

 

[arcobob]

Did you notice the parked little red tractor next door, and what the driver was up to?

Reckon you won't be invited back to Doncaster now Harry ![/QUOTE]
Well spotted Roy. Worse than fingers in the till maybe

 

[Dealer]

Not handling tho is he. Lol

Just stamping. So that's alright.

 

[arcobob]

Not handling tho is he. Lol

Just stamping. So that's alright.

Definitely not ploughing, or is that a purely incidental activity?

 

[Ley253]

Definitely not ploughing, or is that a purely incidental activity?

Dont worry everyone, he is fully aware of my feelings on the subject! I remind him quite regularly!

 

[TrickyT]

I only normally browse this forum, but could not resist putting this video I found on YouTube.

10 minutes and 2 seconds - just needs a knife to go with the fork!
11 minutes and 8 seconds - seems to be ok as it is only stamping!
13 minutes and 8 seconds - Is this also OK as it is not the ploughman undertaking the task?

I know it is older, by this one needs the Benny Hill music dubbed over it.

1 minute 10 seconds to 2 minutes 10 seconds.

I plough in the Fergie class, there is the occasional handling, but only but the same few ploughmen.

Trevor

 

[Ray996]

I only normally browse this forum, but could not resist putting this video I found on YouTube.

10 minutes and 2 seconds - just needs a knife to go with the fork!
11 minutes and 8 seconds - seems to be ok as it is only stamping!
13 minutes and 8 seconds - Is this also OK as it is not the ploughman undertaking the task?

I know it is older, by this one needs the Benny Hill music dubbed over it.

1 minute 10 seconds to 2 minutes 10 seconds.

I plough in the Fergie class, there is the occasional handling, but only but the same few ploughmen.

Trevor

Gardeners world at its best!

 

[Howard150]

No effort at all, plough was out and in again too quickly! The plough had not passed through, it had passed over, I was very surprised to find I still had all of it on the tractor, really thought that was the end of the days activities.It jumped completely clear of the ground. I went and looked for the stone, but couldn't find it, so left things as they were, it wasn't going to cause a repeat performance next time up that side
Did you notice the parked little red tractor next door, and what the driver was up to?

Forgive me for saying Harry but such a way with words. A rare gift. A calling - nay vocation - missed. Rarely have I encountered anybody with such a penchant for the English language. Whilst I consider myself to be well read and have a fairly good comprehension of the English language, I am in awe of your skill with words and your enviable capability to re-align and re-define them. The ability to repolarise and upend things turning negatives to positives within a few short sentences. The rare talent to stretch and add to dictionary definitions only to revisit later and re-define. A talent unlimited by normal boundaries. A calling missed. A world in which bang to rights can in the same sentence mean bang to wrongs!
Aitch - dare I say it, a legal profession short changed - you could well have been a Barista!

No offence intended but people like Bill Clinton and OJ Simpson are crying out for people like you
Back to Sarn though. For many of us vintage and classic ploughmen, then failing to stop as you did would have undoubtedly led to terminal damage of our tackle. Going back to rectify things after the event vindicates Fred’s picture. Like it or not that piece of Wales in the video had been ploughed. Gotcha!

 

[Roy Stokes]

Gotcha!

 

[Roy Stokes]

I only normally browse this forum, but could not resist putting this video I found on YouTube.

10 minutes and 2 seconds - just needs a knife to go with the fork!
11 minutes and 8 seconds - seems to be ok as it is only stamping!
13 minutes and 8 seconds - Is this also OK as it is not the ploughman undertaking the task?

I know it is older, by this one needs the Benny Hill music dubbed over it.

1 minute 10 seconds to 2 minutes 10 seconds.

I plough in the Fergie class, there is the occasional handling, but only but the same few ploughmen.

Trevor

Welcome aboard Trevor !

 

[Howard150]

I only normally browse this forum, but could not resist putting this video I found on YouTube.

10 minutes and 2 seconds - just needs a knife to go with the fork!
11 minutes and 8 seconds - seems to be ok as it is only stamping!
13 minutes and 8 seconds - Is this also OK as it is not the ploughman undertaking the task?

I know it is older, by this one needs the Benny Hill music dubbed over it.

1 minute 10 seconds to 2 minutes 10 seconds.

I plough in the Fergie class, there is the occasional handling, but only but the same few ploughmen.

Trevor

Great work ethic all those young’uns at Westmeath! Looks good going and in all fairness the kind of going that probably would not need to be handled.

Once judged the second one held in that very same field at Builth Wells. Jimmy Chalmers was stood at the end of his opening winking at me as we judged the openings. The rig stick stuck in at the end not only obscured the view but the £20 note wrapped carefully around the point led Jimmy to think he was assured of success. Jimmy got a terrible shock as I carefully picked it up. Gave it straight back to him God rest him, lovely genuine guy and joker that he was. Think he was placed but only in the lower order.

 

[Ley253]

Forgive me for saying Harry but such a way with words. A rare gift. A calling - nay vocation - missed. Rarely have I encountered anybody with such a penchant for the English language. Whilst I consider myself to be well read and have a fairly good comprehension of the English language, I am in awe of your skill with words and your enviable capability to re-align and re-define them. The ability to repolarise and upend things turning negatives to positives within a few short sentences. The rare talent to stretch and add to dictionary definitions only to revisit later and re-define. A talent unlimited by normal boundaries. A calling missed. A world in which bang to rights can in the same sentence mean bang to wrongs!
Aitch - dare I say it, a legal profession short changed - you could well have been a Barista!


View attachment 623628 View attachment 623632

No offence intended but people like Bill Clinton and OJ Simpson are crying out for people like you
Back to Sarn though. For many of us vintage and classic ploughmen, then failing to stop as you did would have undoubtedly led to terminal damage of our tackle. Going back to rectify things after the event vindicates Fred’s picture. Like it or not that piece of Wales in the video had been ploughed. Gotcha!

We will settle for scratched! There is nothing in the rules which forbids me to check for obstructions which could( and in this case I was certain had) damaged the plough, or any specific area to park in whilst the was being done. I had a similar happening at Builth, though this time I managed to stop. The stone in question was in both the ploughed ground, and the unploughed, it took two of us to get it out. Should I then have cut it in half, in order to comply? We can ignore the fact that I would still be there!
I agree that in normal circumstances, failing to stop would have been unwise,( KV legs and frogs do bend, I have replaced both over the years) but Ricks video seems to be in slow motion, the plough was out and back in before my aged brain cells had registered the problem!The plough did jump out of the ground, in all my years, I have never seen the like, if it had hit a landmine, I doubt it would have been any faster! As it was still ploughing, and no bits of plough were sticking up out of the hole, I decided to go to the end, (I was well passed the "Interesting spot" by now) rather that extend the muddle by lifting the plough away from the original problem spot.
I fully expected to find terminal damage, but just in case there was none, it was not worth making the mess in the crown any larger.
Returning to words, my claim to fame here is the shutting down of a religious seminar when I was in the RN. There were about seven preachers of all denominations, there to lecture us budding NCO`s on how to place religion in the frame work of the leadership qualification we were training for. I led them on a bit, then asked an unanswerable question! End of seminar, and an early start for the W/E leave
Returning to Freds picture, it can only prove that there is a man carrying a fork. No proof of when, where, identity or of the use, if any, of said fork.There is a world of difference between knowing and proving! The unpleasant thing really is, that instead of coming up with ideas to curb this scourge, he chooses to smear the reputation of a man know not to handle.
The attitude of a Somerset society chairman backs this up. When taken to task for inviting the two demonstrators, he said, "Perhaps you should join them, I know its not in your nature, but it would get you the few extra points you need"!

 

[Howard150]

We will settle for scratched! There is nothing in the rules which forbids me to check for obstructions which could( and in this case I was certain had) damaged the plough, or any specific area to park in whilst the was being done. I had a similar happening at Builth, though this time I managed to stop. The stone in question was in both the ploughed ground, and the unploughed, it took two of us to get it out. Should I then have cut it in half, in order to comply? We can ignore the fact that I would still be there!
I agree that in normal circumstances, failing to stop would have been unwise,( KV legs and frogs do bend, I have replaced both over the years) but Ricks video seems to be in slow motion, the plough was out and back in before my aged brain cells had registered the problem!The plough did jump out of the ground, in all my years, I have never seen the like, if it had hit a landmine, I doubt it would have been any faster! As it was still ploughing, and no bits of plough were sticking up out of the hole, I decided to go to the end, (I was well passed the "Interesting spot" by now) rather that extend the muddle by lifting the plough away from the original problem spot.
I fully expected to find terminal damage, but just in case there was none, it was not worth making the mess in the crown any larger.
Returning to words, my claim to fame here is the shutting down of a religious seminar when I was in the RN. There were about seven preachers of all denominations, there to lecture us budding NCO`s on how to place religion in the frame work of the leadership qualification we were training for. I led them on a bit, then asked an unanswerable question! End of seminar, and an early start for the W/E leave
Returning to Freds picture, it can only prove that there is a man carrying a fork. No proof of when, where, identity or of the use, if any, of said fork.There is a world of difference between knowing and proving! The unpleasant thing really is, that instead of coming up with ideas to curb this scourge, he chooses to smear the reputation of a man know not to handle.
The attitude of a Somerset society chairman backs this up. When taken to task for inviting the two demonstrators, he said, "Perhaps you should join them, I know its not in your nature, but it would get you the few extra points you need"!

There is indeed something in the rules which prevents you from checking for obstructions in the ploughed ground. By virtue of driving on, that part of your work was indeed completed. Whatever obstruction contained in it is of little or no consequence to the next round. The item in the rules is - believe it or not - handling.

My summation of your talents linguistic seems now to be incomplete having forgotten the bit about being an adept at adding ambiguity where there is none. Kicking ends over in a similar vein. If that were the case then every self respecting ploughman would have 20 points for his ins and outs. Simply drop the plough in sooner and then put the bit outside the chip to rights. Not gardening according to TGATHD.

As per Fred and a smear then sorry but he is right. The difference between knowing and proving is in this case sorting things out as it happens (which in this case would arouse more sympathy than complaint) or walking back nearly the length of the plot to handle what can only be described as ploughing - good or bad but either way handling. Just a small point but ask any crook or crooked brief - you can only be guilty if you get caught. You are always innocent until proven guilty.

Ronnie Coulter highlighted a similar but distinctly different scenario from knowing and proving. The vagaries in the two words FINISHED and COMPLETE. Whilst outwardly the meanings are the same, the connotations and qualifications which can be easily attached to them can cause serious differences in the definition......
A man who finds and marries the right woman is COMPLETE. However a man who finds and marries the wrong woman is FINISHED. A man who finds and marries a woman addicted to shopping is COMPLETELY FINISHED. Thanks Ronnie for that pearl of wisdom.

 

[Ley253]

Your photographic interpretation is amazing! From one still shot you know, how far has been walked, and what has been done at the end of or during the walk!
From a short video, of a plough jumping out of the ground, you can tell that the driver got out of his cab, walked back up the plot and handled his work!
However, we have digressed from the original thread, and must return. I am still of the opinion that it is wrong for Societies which in one breath are trying to discipline wrong doers by the occasional award of penalty point at their match, yet in the next are inviting them to show off their skills to a collection of trainee judges.
The elephant in this room, is complete with bells an whistles, but no one wants to see it, much easier to have a go at the one who does. Handling is doing match ploughing no good at all, competitors get a false idea as to their skills, newcomers get fed up by coming behind cheats.This results in a poor showing where hands have to stay on the steering wheel, and many newcomers not staying the course.

 

[Howard150]

Your photographic interpretation is amazing! From one still shot you know, how far has been walked, and what has been done at the end of or during the walk!
From a short video, of a plough jumping out of the ground, you can tell that the driver got out of his cab, walked back up the plot and handled his work!
However, we have digressed from the original thread, and must return. I am still of the opinion that it is wrong for Societies which in one breath are trying to discipline wrong doers by the occasional award of penalty point at their match, yet in the next are inviting them to show off their skills to a collection of trainee judges.
The elephant in this room, is complete with bells an whistles, but no one wants to see it, much easier to have a go at the one who does. Handling is doing match ploughing no good at all, competitors get a false idea as to their skills, newcomers get fed up by coming behind cheats.This results in a poor showing where hands have to stay on the steering wheel, and many newcomers not staying the course.

Come come Harry overly generous with your praise. Said blind man on said galloping horse would surely see what I merely pointed out - without the need for copious academic qualification.

With regard to Fred’s picture then don’t forget - I was there. It would not take a genius to realise that with one run left to finish the plot, the side you are stood on being the high number by virtue of its depth, then your tractor must be at the other end of the field. Short of being Harry Potters new best mate then you must have walked up the plot carrying your fork (funnily enough your gripe in this part of the world) and therefore in the eyes of a lot of onlookers up to no good.

With regard to the video - you yourself directed me to it not long after it was posted. Said blind man on said galloping horse would have readily seen that poor old plough of yours leap skyward over an obstruction your senses seemed not to perceive. I did not need to draw any more from the video. You told us it was all done in a flash. Harry potters new best mate here again cos’ we all watched the video of you ploughing to the end of the plot - apart from wizardry then the only way back down your plot would be to walk. Don’t forget it was you that told us you had gone back to dig the obstruction out. Elementary my dear Watson

Missing the plough jumping out of the ground reminds me of the time when a sloth was mugged by 3 tortoises. The jungle police desperate to catch the culprits said to the Sloth ‘nowthen owd lad - in your own words tellus what appended ere today’ “difficult to say officer” said the Sloth. “It all appended that fast”

Not shoutin’ at you or spoiling for a fallout Aitch - just sayin!

 

[Ley253]

All quite correct, but none of it shown in the photo, and impossible for a less knowledgeable person to notice. I indeed did go back to dig said obstruction out if it was going to cause problems on the next run, fact is, I couldn't find it, so nothing was done! Rick told me he had seen it while taking the vid. It must have been a small flat one that rolled, lifting the plough.

As sloths spend their time upside down from creepers, I now have a picture of tight rope walking antisocial tortoises!