- Location
- M6 Hard shoulder
why were you confused ? we found it quite straightforward, we visited the sight at stone before it was fully comissioned.
Is it too late for AD
- Thread starter mawleymoos
- Start date
mawleymoos
Member
- Location
- Shropshire
I was impressed by the simplicity! I found out that it was only running 2 weeks, so it was more of a show! (I have no problem with that) but I would like to know what it like in "full pelt" we didn't really get a one to one due to there only being 2 people to talk to and a lot of interest! Just got to try and evaluate all the bumph and see if it all stacks up!
- Location
- North Norfolk
- Location
- M6 Hard shoulder
Its a new thing for biolectric in the uk, only since may I think, best thing to do is go to belgium round the factory and see a few established systems, think they have been going for about 10 years
- Location
- Cumbria
Maybe worth having a trawle through this: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/taking-slurry-sample-for-biogas-production.133064/
Daniel
Member
- Location
- Mildenhall, Suffolk
Has anyone got one running?
- Location
- Cumbria
As has been previously stated, Poultry manure is high in N when compared to the likes of Cow and Pig.
During the process heat is required to grow the bacteria which in turn breaks down the volatile solids to produce the biogas.
As part of this process, some of the N is released and turns to ammonium, this becomes an inhibitor that can kill the bacteria.
The system operating temperature very much influences the release rate and TAN (total ammonia nitrogen) loading inside the digester.
So, can you operate a system on Poultry manure alone ? No, you cannot.
Unless you have some (usually expensive) nitrogen stripping technology on the front end of the process.
During the process heat is required to grow the bacteria which in turn breaks down the volatile solids to produce the biogas.
As part of this process, some of the N is released and turns to ammonium, this becomes an inhibitor that can kill the bacteria.
The system operating temperature very much influences the release rate and TAN (total ammonia nitrogen) loading inside the digester.
So, can you operate a system on Poultry manure alone ? No, you cannot.
Unless you have some (usually expensive) nitrogen stripping technology on the front end of the process.
Digester Man
Member
There is a new digester being built to run on poultry litter in N.Ireland, as far as I know it is the first in the world of its kind
- Location
- Cumbria
Rob, the T24 is a EA Exemption permit for Farm Operation of a AD Plant using manure, and crop. The Stream Plant in NI is not the first in the World, there are several using this technology (one in the UK at Retford)
http://www.waterbriefing.org/home/t...-in-the-united-kingdom?tmpl=component&print=1
Hi thesilentone,
We have run a thermophylic facility purely from broiler manure. The facility is not a traditional 'one-pot' AD solution, and the results speak for themselves.
You are correct that ammonium is fatal to traditional AD bacteria populations.
- Location
- Cumbria
Interesting Archemax given the TAN loading under thermophilic conditions are much lower than at lower operating temperatures. how do you deal with the inhibition ?
Hi Again,
Just looked over the Archemax on your website, and other than operating at Thermophillic temperature, I do not see anything to control the N release.
The system retention times can of course be much faster under thermo temp, however the doubling time of the slowest growing bacterial group controls this.
One of the long-term objectives is to ensure a stable process, and without pre-treatment of high N feed-stocks by nitrogen stripping or dilution this is not possible to mono digest.
But, I think you may have something else up your sleeve ?
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- Location
- Cumbria
Archemax, I was hoping for a response ?
Hi thesilentone, sorry for the slow response.
We find that due to the multiple, separated stages of our AD process, we can provide a more conducive environment to the bacteria in each stage, which leads to much greater bug activity, and much more robust populations which are not inhibited by high levels of ammonium. Their ability to survive, and reproduce is beyond anything that we thought possible at a commercial level.
The thermophylic nature of our hydrolosis ensures a retention time of around 2 days, and the thermophylic methanogenesis requires around 4 days, which in turn helps to prevent excessive levels of ammonium.
Don.t get me wrong, we do expect to see ammonium levels peak beyond 'our' safe levels at times, but it happens very infrequently, requires very little management to reduce, and offers very little impact on bug populations and yield thereafter.
- Location
- Cumbria
Interesting, I would like to know what differs with your technology, so to break things down.
We find that due to the multiple, separated stages of our AD process, we can provide a more conducive environment to the bacteria in each stage, which leads to much greater bug activity, and much more robust populations which are not inhibited by high levels of ammonium. The key parameters to Biogas production are HRT (retention period) Operating temperature, PH, OLR (organic loading rate) NLR (nitrogen loading rate) all dictated by the feed-stock. So, if we calculate based on these parameters, as you will be aware it does not matter if we have one or many multiple stages as long as good stirring and sufficient OLR is achieved. In addition, all is equal (the % N release in each small receptacle is same as one big one) Their ability to survive, and reproduce is beyond anything that we thought possible at a commercial level. I don't fully understand what you mean here ? Despite Poultry waste being a reasonably good feed-stock due to high DM levels, tests have shown good sustainability, however to gain the most efficient use it cannot be sustained without liquid and nutrient - whatever process you use.
The thermophylic nature of our hydrolosis ensures a retention time of around 2 days, and the thermophylic methanogenesis requires around 4 days, which in turn helps to prevent excessive levels of ammonium. Optimistic but fair, however, this is only partial decomposition. Most reasonable feed-stocks have given up a high % of VS in the first 7 days. This is not good enough, and will not comply with PAS110. In addition, the tax payer is subsidising us, therefore it is only right we do the job properly and fully. What is the residual biogas potential after your process in the digestate?
I do not see how you do not release the ammonia and organic N, as this is a constant process operating at 50 degrees C. Where does the N go (even if you release less as stated)
Don.t get me wrong, we do expect to see ammonium levels peak beyond 'our' safe levels at times, but it happens very infrequently, requires very little management to reduce, and offers very little impact on bug populations and yield thereafter.
Initially everything can be made to work, the key to good AD is a long-term sustainable process. kW/hr's lost cannot be replaced.
We find that due to the multiple, separated stages of our AD process, we can provide a more conducive environment to the bacteria in each stage, which leads to much greater bug activity, and much more robust populations which are not inhibited by high levels of ammonium. The key parameters to Biogas production are HRT (retention period) Operating temperature, PH, OLR (organic loading rate) NLR (nitrogen loading rate) all dictated by the feed-stock. So, if we calculate based on these parameters, as you will be aware it does not matter if we have one or many multiple stages as long as good stirring and sufficient OLR is achieved. In addition, all is equal (the % N release in each small receptacle is same as one big one) Their ability to survive, and reproduce is beyond anything that we thought possible at a commercial level. I don't fully understand what you mean here ? Despite Poultry waste being a reasonably good feed-stock due to high DM levels, tests have shown good sustainability, however to gain the most efficient use it cannot be sustained without liquid and nutrient - whatever process you use.
The thermophylic nature of our hydrolosis ensures a retention time of around 2 days, and the thermophylic methanogenesis requires around 4 days, which in turn helps to prevent excessive levels of ammonium. Optimistic but fair, however, this is only partial decomposition. Most reasonable feed-stocks have given up a high % of VS in the first 7 days. This is not good enough, and will not comply with PAS110. In addition, the tax payer is subsidising us, therefore it is only right we do the job properly and fully. What is the residual biogas potential after your process in the digestate?
I do not see how you do not release the ammonia and organic N, as this is a constant process operating at 50 degrees C. Where does the N go (even if you release less as stated)
Don.t get me wrong, we do expect to see ammonium levels peak beyond 'our' safe levels at times, but it happens very infrequently, requires very little management to reduce, and offers very little impact on bug populations and yield thereafter.
Initially everything can be made to work, the key to good AD is a long-term sustainable process. kW/hr's lost cannot be replaced.
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Hi thesilentone,
You are right when you point out at the beginning of your previous post "The key parameters to Biogas production are HRT (retention period) Operating temperature, PH, OLR (organic loading rate) NLR (nitrogen loading rate) all dictated by the feed-stock"
However, you then say that it "does not matter if you have multiple stages".
As you are aware, Hydrolysis and Methanogenesis bugs perform better in quite different conditions, and it is exactly because we have multiple stages, that we can manipulate the parameters that you identify. pH for Hydrolysis is quite different for Methanogenesis, for example.
When conditions are maximized, bacterial activity is greater and more aggressive in their consumption of feedstock and the yield of biogas; as is their reproductive potential. It is this reproductive potential that ensures a huge population, which as a consequence is less affected by the release of ammonium.
We dont add additional nutrients, just additional water. Again, multiple stages plus our own IP which has been developed over 10 years, enables this.
We expect to utilize over 98% of biogas potential, with commercial yields at around 300m3 per ton of manure. 2 & 4 day retention times are not 'optimistic' as you state, but proven.
It is interesting that you end your previous post extolling the virtues of sustainable AD, and on this I fully concur. Hence, a multiple-stage, high-throughput, thermophylic AD facility ensures that bacterial activity is maximised and importantly, it is immediately responsive to external influences such as feedstock quality or breakdowns. Gone are the days, when AD operators look at weeks and months of biological ramp-up, and we should now aim for optimum yield to be sustained for upwards of 350 days per year.
I must profess too, that I am not the technical or biological professional behind this, and nor do I wish to publish too much on the internet, for obvious reasons! I had only intended to offer a bored member a response in his search for a Poultry AD option.
You are right when you point out at the beginning of your previous post "The key parameters to Biogas production are HRT (retention period) Operating temperature, PH, OLR (organic loading rate) NLR (nitrogen loading rate) all dictated by the feed-stock"
However, you then say that it "does not matter if you have multiple stages".
As you are aware, Hydrolysis and Methanogenesis bugs perform better in quite different conditions, and it is exactly because we have multiple stages, that we can manipulate the parameters that you identify. pH for Hydrolysis is quite different for Methanogenesis, for example.
When conditions are maximized, bacterial activity is greater and more aggressive in their consumption of feedstock and the yield of biogas; as is their reproductive potential. It is this reproductive potential that ensures a huge population, which as a consequence is less affected by the release of ammonium.
We dont add additional nutrients, just additional water. Again, multiple stages plus our own IP which has been developed over 10 years, enables this.
We expect to utilize over 98% of biogas potential, with commercial yields at around 300m3 per ton of manure. 2 & 4 day retention times are not 'optimistic' as you state, but proven.
It is interesting that you end your previous post extolling the virtues of sustainable AD, and on this I fully concur. Hence, a multiple-stage, high-throughput, thermophylic AD facility ensures that bacterial activity is maximised and importantly, it is immediately responsive to external influences such as feedstock quality or breakdowns. Gone are the days, when AD operators look at weeks and months of biological ramp-up, and we should now aim for optimum yield to be sustained for upwards of 350 days per year.
I must profess too, that I am not the technical or biological professional behind this, and nor do I wish to publish too much on the internet, for obvious reasons! I had only intended to offer a bored member a response in his search for a Poultry AD option.
- Location
- Cumbria
Thanks for the response, and I fully agree with your comment - to a point. However one item is unavoidable, that is the inhibiting effect of the N, and what happens to it ?
Trying to re-produce the efficiency of a cow's digestion process is the holy grail, however there are many other factors that a cow has that cannot be mechanically replicated.
Once thing AD gives us is control, based on we know what we are feeding in, how it reacts to various families of bacteria and what we get out.
The bit in the middle is nuts and bolts and tanks and pipes etc, however we cannot change the elements or the nutrient. To do this requires something else
(maybe browse here: file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Farrow_Cameron_201605_PhD.pdf )
maybe you should offer a paper at this event:
http://www.aquaenviro.co.uk/events/...rs-fight-nitrogen-recovery-recycling-removal/
I realise it is difficult to give to much away on a forum, however it was you who decided to use this thread to promote your process.
Trying to re-produce the efficiency of a cow's digestion process is the holy grail, however there are many other factors that a cow has that cannot be mechanically replicated.
Once thing AD gives us is control, based on we know what we are feeding in, how it reacts to various families of bacteria and what we get out.
The bit in the middle is nuts and bolts and tanks and pipes etc, however we cannot change the elements or the nutrient. To do this requires something else
(maybe browse here: file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Farrow_Cameron_201605_PhD.pdf )
maybe you should offer a paper at this event:
http://www.aquaenviro.co.uk/events/...rs-fight-nitrogen-recovery-recycling-removal/
I realise it is difficult to give to much away on a forum, however it was you who decided to use this thread to promote your process.
- Location
- North Norfolk
Its not necessarily so that the different bugs need to be separate, in a way quite the opposite. The acetogenesis stage produces hydrogen, which must be utilised almost instantaneously. If it is not utilised in the immediate vicinity of the acetogens, then their activity is inhibited. It is certain methanogens which utilise the hydrogen, in combination with carbon dioxide, to generate methane and water. See for example page 39 in "The microbiology of anaerobic digesters" which is freely downloadable as a pdf https://thunderbooks.files.wordpres...-of-anaerobic-digesters-michael-h-gerardi.pdf
Therefore they work better when together, other factors being equal.
Stephen
Therefore they work better when together, other factors being equal.
Stephen
Hi sjt01, that is indeed a very interesting read. As i pointed out earlier, this is not my area of expertise, and I wont proffer to agree or disagree with you.
Our research and development has been conducted for 10 years and shows that a multiple stage, thermophylic process provides a more sustainable result.
If i can persuade our lead scientist to contribute to this thread, I will. That may prove to be the greatest challenge I have faced for a while!
Our research and development has been conducted for 10 years and shows that a multiple stage, thermophylic process provides a more sustainable result.
If i can persuade our lead scientist to contribute to this thread, I will. That may prove to be the greatest challenge I have faced for a while!