- Location
- Essex
I know Francis is looking forward to it - it's almost like he is desperate to get our of the office....
Is it too late for AD
- Thread starter mawleymoos
- Start date
mawleymoos
Member
- Location
- Shropshire
And we have lift off!!! We managed to run the engine today at approx 60kwh for about 10 hrs! It seems strange that for a few hrs, the farm was running on cow poo!!! About to turn the engine off, for the night till they set it all up for automation tomorrow!!
Mucktogold
Member
- Location
- Suffolk
Congratulatons. That's amazing! Is it a Bioelectric 52 kw? Or another make?
How many other Bioelectric digestors are now running at 52 Kw or more, earning lots of ROC?
How many other Bioelectric digestors are now running at 52 Kw or more, earning lots of ROC?
tanker
Member
I follow these threads with interest having come across some big AD plants(they seemed big then anyway) on pig farms in Germany&Sweden on my travels with YFC,etc some 10-15 years ago now.In the intervening years they've established here in the UK and early on I made an enquiry or two about setting up a plant but then other events like a new milking parlour and the crash in the milk price pushed it off the radar completely.As well as this,the figures being bandied about to set up an operation seemed astronomical. I've often wondered however if there's a possibility of doing it far more cheaply?We've got a 40kw solar system up&running so the grid connection is here if we wanted to export, there's a decent sized tractor driven generator here for emergencies which hardly ever had to do anything when it was in the system and is now completely redundant because of the way the new parlour has had to be powered, there's an engine here to that could conceivably be converted if it comes to that but the engine wouldn't be a massive hurdle.The main element would of course be the digester and I don't know what options there are here without spending big.The milking herd is on a slatted mostly covered concrete tank and I've often thought that something could be possible on a small scale.Is this a pipe dream or is there a way to make a return however modest? If so, is there a source of cheap(free) advice on the job I wonder?
- Location
- Northumberland
Such pragmatism is frowned upon. When these schemes are dreamt up, the manufacturers/installers get involved as stakeholders, insisting that brand new kit is a requirement to qualify for support. I wonder why. There was a scheme a while back to grant-fund viability studies for new AD projects, but guess what, a requirement was to use a consultant from an approved list to do the report. Do you think the hourly rates would be sensible? Do you think the same people might have been involved with dreaming up the scheme? No wonder there's bad press at times.
Rant aside, if you could make it work without external support, then you can do what you like.
- Location
- North Norfolk
There are quite a few books available, but none really practical. If I was in your position, I would get a second hand milk silo or similar to use as a digester, as big as you can afford. It must be jacketed for heating, and preferably have sparge pipes for gas mixing. These guys often have them www.centriplant.co.uk/product-category/used-tanks/
but dont seem to have any at present. You can use a pvc bag suspended in a shed for a gasholder, and if you can utilise heat on farm then just buy a suitable size gas boiler and drill out the jets to suit biogas, avoid engines as expensive and high maintenance. Just about to do 56,000 hour service on ours tomorrow, and you could buy 2 or 3 family cars for the cost of the service, and it is only a small one (170 kW). If you are visiting Norfolk at any time PM me and call in for a chat.
Stephen
- Location
- Cumbria
I fell your frustration, however nothing could be further from the truth. In the early days many looked to utilise service exchange or second-hand equipment (especially CHP units) to keep costs down. However, Ofgem made it clear than only new equipment would qualify for FiT's. Several have tried to convince Ofgem along the way to allow s/h units to be used without success. 'The tax payer pays, so the tax payer deserves value for money' is Ofgems view. (mind you I'm not sure what they are missing if you read the ' are you less than 1000m from a sub-station thread)
The 25k that was made available to carry out a feasibility study a couple of years ago, was for exactly that. What is the problem with this ?
It allowed anyone who had a potential project to gain the services of an expert FOC, don't mock it !!
- Location
- Cumbria
One of the first serious AD Companies in the UK was set-up by a man who started out by making a simple digester to provide gas for his AGA cooker (I assume several on here will know who that was).
The problem with all these ideas is red-tape and risk. In your case why bother exporting, why not just power the business ? Or has option already gone in a PPA agreement
As somebody interested in AD and now having looked at a number of plants of varying types I think you get what you pay for. The cheaper plants seem to be riddled with issues where as the rolls royce plants are running earning big money. I think the issue is the area of land they need to feed them as for me its not renewable when your taking 1000 acres of land out of food production to ensure a 1mw plant runs at max capacity to generate the renewable income. I have seen one 500kw plant that needs 800 acres of land but it is running at close to 100% all the time.
The original idea of turning waste into power, which should be subsidised, has been forgotten because the sellers of the plants have steered farmers into the systems with some very grey, some would argue, unethical information.
The original idea of turning waste into power, which should be subsidised, has been forgotten because the sellers of the plants have steered farmers into the systems with some very grey, some would argue, unethical information.
- Location
- Cumbria
You need to get up to speed.
Things have changed, on both the FiT payment scheme where energy crop is used and rules regarding the Sustainability Criteria for crops and waste.
The problem with food-waste, is getting it !!
There are millions of tons (allegedly) but it would be easier to mine for gold than get a contract for 50k tons to build a worthwhile plant.
Edit: Should have added, you are spot-on with your analysis of the plants in the UK...
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Whats changed? as bare in mind I am seeing existing plants running on what sounds like older rules.
- Location
- Cumbria
The original idea of turning waste into power, which should be subsidised, has been forgotten because the sellers of the plants have steered farmers into the systems with some very grey, some would argue, unethical information.
Older plants are on the tariff they are on. which is guaranteed.
New plants cannot get these high levels of support now, but this is typical of any new market.
Your comment above is rather broad, the sellers of the plants didn't give a hoot if it's waste - energy crops or anything else, they simply sell pipes, pumps, tanks etc, etc...In fact the waste plants are usually more profitable as they are bespoke design and more regulated,however not every AD company is big enough to secure the risk.
However, I would agree with your statement in as much that some suppliers who use the economics as a way to sell, often fall down when put under scrutiny.
The difference is down to who supplies the money. If the plant is of a high value, and serious lending is required. Then the commercial and technical due diligence, regulation and contract terms protect the lender, and the buyer through a process guarantee and liquidated damages.
If it is ' done on the cheap ' and assets are used to secure bank/commercial lending, then corners are cut to reduce cost, then normally problems arise.
Lost operating hours are the most common, as they cannot be recouped, and you often hear, ' Oh, we are just waiting for this, that or the other to get up to full production '
But, with small plants, the economics are difficult, therefore the technology is built to a price, but the financial risk is lower as are these losses.
Horses for courses...........
Older plants are on the tariff they are on. which is guaranteed.
New plants cannot get these high levels of support now, but this is typical of any new market.
Your comment above is rather broad, the sellers of the plants didn't give a hoot if it's waste - energy crops or anything else, they simply sell pipes, pumps, tanks etc, etc...In fact the waste plants are usually more profitable as they are bespoke design and more regulated,however not every AD company is big enough to secure the risk.
However, I would agree with your statement in as much that some suppliers who use the economics as a way to sell, often fall down when put under scrutiny.
The difference is down to who supplies the money. If the plant is of a high value, and serious lending is required. Then the commercial and technical due diligence, regulation and contract terms protect the lender, and the buyer through a process guarantee and liquidated damages.
If it is ' done on the cheap ' and assets are used to secure bank/commercial lending, then corners are cut to reduce cost, then normally problems arise.
Lost operating hours are the most common, as they cannot be recouped, and you often hear, ' Oh, we are just waiting for this, that or the other to get up to full production '
But, with small plants, the economics are difficult, therefore the technology is built to a price, but the financial risk is lower as are these losses.
Horses for courses...........
- Location
- Northumberland
I appreciate you're much closer to this than I, who was frustrated by the barriers (daft network connection costs being foremost) to entry.
The issue with the feasibility study was not from a potential AD perspective, very useful in that regard, but that it appeared to be a income generation device for the consultants, sourced from public money. That doesn't sit right with me.
- Location
- Cumbria
I understand, however maybe an explanation is better.
Sometime ago, it was apparent that many people who maybe had ideal locations/feed-stock/ease of planning etc and were enthusiastic (maybe like yourself) were either unwilling or unable to fund the development phase. This is a tough period where there is nothing but cost. With most AD plants, this in excess of £25k, with some as high as £250k. a very risky period. Some projects fly spectacularly, some crash and burn as does the money.
Large scale plants 500kw+ generally have a Scoping study ( at a cost) to see what further risks my be encountered, and if any investment is worthwhile. In addition the conversion ratio was low from plants that gained planning to actually being built - especially on-farm projects. Allot of the time it was because no one was willing to invest, in many cases they really did not know what to do, who to contact, what steps to take.
The £25k was a way of ensuring good advice was given, and a feasibility study carried out to ensure the project was bankable. = Confidence to crack on.
The list of developers was drawn up to ensure that only those sufficiently experienced provided that advice.
mawleymoos
Member
- Location
- Shropshire
As mentioned in earlier posts, it is OMNI's own single 80kw slurry only digester! Approx 6 weeks from starting to fill it and the last 2-3 days it has been running at 27kw/h x 24 hrs! With it being their first own design we are all awaiting to see its full potential! (Not expecting 80kw) but wondering where it will level out! When would we expect a slurryonly plant to be at full output? 12 wks? 6 months?
- Location
- Cumbria
Assuming correct commissioning procedures have been followed and all mechanical/electrical/structural defects/problems are solved, then you will be making biogas quite quickly. However this is dirty gas and unusable in the CHP. Therefore this will need to be flared for sometime and the gas periodically analysed for quality.
Once H2S levels are down below 150ppm, and CH4 levels are above 50%+ then you can start the CHP. How long will this take depends on many factors like tank heat transfer efficiency / stirring / insulation / gas cleaning / feed-stock quality.
Once you have quality gas and the CHP is operating (8 weeks approx) don't push to hard, allow the process to become stable.
If you have not carried out a correct start-up procedure, it is likely you may need to stop the process to rectify problems, count this a staring at the beginning again.
At this stage, patience wins..........
To achieve 80kw with 1000m3 tank/80 days HRT, you will need about 13000 m3 Cow Slurry @ 8% DM.
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mawleymoos
Member
- Location
- Shropshire
Thanks! So you reckon it could take approx 8 weeks of the engine running, for it to show what it can do with the slurry we feed it with! It is a 1200m3 tank but we have started bedding with oat husk and also adding a bit of silage stripping and some skim milk! Every farm's slurry will be unique so watching things regularly! I was sort of hopping for 50-60 kw through the winter when we have another 110 heifers in cubicles! However It averaged 37kwh yesterday!
- Location
- Cumbria
Ensure you have quality gas or you will be doing long-term damage to your CHP unit, if the H2S ppm is above 250, shut down and flare the gas until the cleaning system is working effectively..