Is no till the only way to save soils?

[Two Tone]

If a Bettinson DD led to 10t/acre crops, even for a few years, then I'm off to look in the nettles...

Oops - Sorry, 10 tonnes/ha. Not per acre, Now edited, thank you.

I'd leave the DD in the nettles if I were you!

 

[Renaultman]

I have tried no-till a couple of times here and it hasn't worked. But I have to say that it was more likely the years we tried it that was the reason why it didn't work.

We have tremendously variable soil types within every field and it can be very difficult to get a machine setting that works properly for every type, especially on the heavy clays

We used to be a plough and combi-drill based system. Granted that we sometimes have to fit a power harrowing in between plough and combi, but it always worked well. Then we got a Sumo Trio to replace the plough and that worked well in most years, but not every one. Moreton-in-Marsh is very aptly named and a lot of this land can get very wet, very quickly.

With regard saving soils, it's more the case of trying to keep them in good condition and the best way we have found so far is to use steel and tractor diesel to keep them in good condition

There is no doubt that we have seen an increase in Blackgrass since we started using the Trio. So we started rotational ploughing ahead of the 2nd white straw crop. If we have managed to control BG in a Rape crop, why plough seed up to the top up again? But after a 1st wheat we needed to bury BG seed ahead of the 2nd.

However, because it was so wet last season, we didn't get a good enough BG control in the Rape (Or Beans!!) so this year I have ploughed the lot. The 3 months or relatively dry summer from July to Sept have helped put the soil back into reasonable condition and it ploughed really well!

I'm still very interested in finding out more about no-till. It will work on certain soil types really well. I am slightly concerned that it is a seed merchant hay-day regards cover crops and I wonder if it will turn out to be a fashion in the same way min-til became one.

Ploughing the lot this year, certainly highlighted the tremendous soil variations within each field we have here. But I can't remember an Autumn where I have been so happy about the conditions in which we drilled. Using a combi is easy to adjust to different soil types. All you need to do is alter forward speed and it is easy to see where you can do so as you go along.

The most important bit IMO is that you have to be very flexible as to your preferred cultivation method each year and have the machinery to be able to use each system. If not, you must have one system that you know will work every time and that might have to be a plough.

Totally agree with your combi comment having gone to a vaderstad for part of my drilling this year. I really miss having the option to knock it right back in the knotty bits, can't get near it for productivity though

 

[Philip Hedeng]

And, pray tell, where do we sell the stock thus raised and for what coin?

That's for us to figure out, the eco system we live in only react to how we treat it. In a global perspective, a start might be to let the existing stock out more often to pastures instead of gathering them in big buildings while growing them monoculture crops to eat. That won't disrupt the balance between supply and demand and would be beneficial for all living things. Nutrient quality of the meat seems to get better as well in a grazing system.

 

[mikep]

That's for us to figure out, the eco system we live in only react to how we treat it. In a global perspective, a start might be to let the existing stock out more often to pastures instead of gathering them in big buildings while growing them monoculture crops to eat. That won't disrupt the balance between supply and demand and would be beneficial for all living things. Nutrient quality of the meat seems to get better as well in a grazing system.

I totally agree but it's just like the old joke of a man asking directions he is told "it's easy but I wouldn't start from here".
My point is that there is only a limited market for added value goods be they meat or vegetables so any premium you would need would evaporate and you would be tits up.
I should think there are very few farmers we are competing with worldwide who would not want to go back a few years to a more profitable and less stressful time but the trick is to get it done everywhere at the same time otherwise you are in direct and unfair competition with others.
Beware siren voices telling you the public will pay more for 'better' food its total rubbish as morality takes a dive at the supermarket in more ways than one.
The public in most of the western world are use to cheap disposable food and politicians rely on it to keep the masses quiet, the quickest way to get a revolution would be hunger so the odds are stacked against you from the start.
So yes you are right but you will have to persuade an awful lot of people to follow.

Secondly I think that a lot of people ignore humans when talking of ecosystems, sorry but as the top predator that is a mistake there must be room for all the stuff associated with 'civilisation' and that is where I think it all comes apart as six billion people will need a lot of room to live as well as to produce food, this will increase the short term pressure to keep agriculture on the exploitive mode for a while longer. The third world are not happy with what they have and I don't blame them so on a cheerful note I think the problems we have will be swept under the carpet pretty soon as the food supply will not be able to keep up with the demands that will be placed upon it.

 

[Flat 10]

Of course no-till works on all soils. If there was no humans about, there would be no tillage and yet there would be bountiful growth on all our soils. But it wouldn't be neat rows of monoculture wheat. Round here it would be oak forest, so what you have to ask yourself is how much work I am prepared to put in to fight nature and stop it turning back into a forest? By far the easiest way is to get animals to do it for you, grazing permanent pastures/herbal leys, but as Dr W says above, it's not everyone's idea of fun. The next easiest (here anyway) is no-till, but you need to work with nature a bit with rotations and timings. There's not a lot wrong with shallow cultivation, except it's blackgrass's idea of heaven

I don't think there would be bountiful growth on all soils......
Some rubbish heath near here that grows f'all naturally but outdoor pigs and crops such as Lucerne allow the owners to make it much more productive.

 

[Philip Hedeng]

I totally agree but it's just like the old joke of a man asking directions he is told "it's easy but I wouldn't start from here".
My point is that there is only a limited market for added value goods be they meat or vegetables so any premium you would need would evaporate and you would be tits up.
I should think there are very few farmers we are competing with worldwide who would not want to go back a few years to a more profitable and less stressful time but the trick is to get it done everywhere at the same time otherwise you are in direct and unfair competition with others.
Beware siren voices telling you the public will pay more for 'better' food its total rubbish as morality takes a dive at the supermarket in more ways than one.
The public in most of the western world are use to cheap disposable food and politicians rely on it to keep the masses quiet, the quickest way to get a revolution would be hunger so the odds are stacked against you from the start.
So yes you are right but you will have to persuade an awful lot of people to follow.

Secondly I think that a lot of people ignore humans when talking of ecosystems, sorry but as the top predator that is a mistake there must be room for all the stuff associated with 'civilisation' and that is where I think it all comes apart as six billion people will need a lot of room to live as well as to produce food, this will increase the short term pressure to keep agriculture on the exploitive mode for a while longer. The third world are not happy with what they have and I don't blame them so on a cheerful note I think the problems we have will be swept under the carpet pretty soon as the food supply will not be able to keep up with the demands that will be placed upon it.

Now this will require insight from someone with more knowledge than me, but does grass/herbal fed livestock HAVE to be an expensive option for producers and consumers? I'll probably let someone answer that before I go on. And perhaps you're right about the difficulties and it will require collaboration between producers, governments, organisations and ready consumers to make the change. But right now it looks like we have to, either way.

You bring up the humans in eco systems, and that's a very good point. We are the end consumers of most of the agriculture products, but we're bad at incorporating ourselves into the nutrient cycle.

 

[damaged]

If long term leys actually improve the soil, why, oh why, is ALL my shite ground in perm pasture and the better soil in mostly cereal rotation?
The biggest area of natural grassland in Europe is on the Plains in Wiltshire. It doesn't appear to be good soil at all. Give my fertile free draining loam over chalk and ill give you zero till that works. But give me impervious clay with 700mm annual rainfall and I'll give direct drilling two fingers.

 

[Dan Powell]

If long term leys actually improve the soil, why, oh why, is ALL my shite ground in perm pasture and the better soil in mostly cereal rotation?
The biggest area of natural grassland in Europe is on the Plains in Wiltshire. It doesn't appear to be good soil at all. Give my fertile free draining loam over chalk and ill give you zero till that works. But give me impervious clay with 700mm annual rainfall and I'll give direct drilling two fingers.

Of course it improves soil. It increases structure and organic matter. But it can't change the mineral balance so wet shite will remain wet shite. Just imagine how bad it would be if you did try to arable it...

 

[doorknob]

Now this will require insight from someone with more knowledge than me, but does grass/herbal fed livestock HAVE to be an expensive option for producers and consumers? I'll probably let someone answer that before I go on. And perhaps you're right about the difficulties and it will require collaboration between producers, governments, organisations and ready consumers to make the change. But right now it looks like we have to, either way.

You bring up the humans in eco systems, and that's a very good point. We are the end consumers of most of the agriculture products, but we're bad at incorporating ourselves into the nutrient cycle.

Now there's an interesting bit that you do not hear brought up in these arguments.......er,....I mean discussions.

 

[Philip Hedeng]

If long term leys actually improve the soil, why, oh why, is ALL my shite ground in perm pasture and the better soil in mostly cereal rotation?
The biggest area of natural grassland in Europe is on the Plains in Wiltshire. It doesn't appear to be good soil at all. Give my fertile free draining loam over chalk and ill give you zero till that works. But give me impervious clay with 700mm annual rainfall and I'll give direct drilling two fingers.

I think you answered that question yourself, field's in permanent pasture because it's not good enough for anything else. With pasture there's at least some productivity and with low input. As @Dan Powell said, it's the mineral content that makes soils behave differently, and that's a process of thousands of years. The benefits of livestock and diverse leys in an arable rotation on the other hand seem to give productivity a boost through nutrient recycling, deeper root systems, better soil structure and pest control by diversity. Also it's the ultimate no-till. I just can't see how drawbacks will outweigh the benefits

 

[mikep]

You bring up the humans in eco systems, and that's a very good point. We are the end consumers of most of the agriculture products, but we're bad at incorporating ourselves into the nutrient cycle.

Your right Soylent Green anyone?.

 

[Philip Hedeng]

Your right Soylent Green anyone?.

Haha, right, I blame my limited language skills for sounding like we should throw our bodies into bio gas tanks.

Edit: Perhaps I should have written that we have to find more safe ways to recycle the nutritious waste we humans produce of what we consume.

 

[ollie989898]

Grass leys do improve ground, but as the saying goes, all that is green is not grass.

Permanent pasture consisting of weed grasses, which just creep about, aren't really the name of the game. Proper grass leys, which are physically larger and more aggressive, and deeper rooting, I am convinced improve the ground far far better.

I have seen it myself. If you turn over a grass ley which has been fed and utilised, the roots penetrate down and when turned over you get an onion bed.

The fun really starts when you begin pulling this land about for several years, or worse, growing a lot of maize on it.

Within a few years, the soil loses it's natural body and you find the root masses disappear- they oxidise and disappear.

I am in an area of which not all is suitable for full time arable cultivation. A lot of my cropping will be on land that is behind grass, and I can grow some cracking crops. But I wouldn't dare suggest the farmer tried the stunt for 5 years in a row- the soil won't like it.

 

[ollie989898]

If long term leys actually improve the soil, why, oh why, is ALL my shite ground in perm pasture and the better soil in mostly cereal rotation?
The biggest area of natural grassland in Europe is on the Plains in Wiltshire. It doesn't appear to be good soil at all. Give my fertile free draining loam over chalk and ill give you zero till that works. But give me impervious clay with 700mm annual rainfall and I'll give direct drilling two fingers.

The plains of Wiltshire were historically never deemed to be fit to grow wheat in- they were too hungry and thirsty- the old boys thought the land could only grow barley- it didn't have the 'heart' for wheat (probably copper deficiency as much as anything). But it did grow grass ok- all the big estates had thousands of sheep and blokes to fold them over stuff.

Chalk dirt in my book is generally improverished or at least looks that way- some years on a nice dry summer it looks like the surface of the moon tilled over. I know a lot of the Wiltshire massive are throwing on manures and digestate and chicken-muck these days so it's much better than it was, but often in my youth I would walk about and you would struggle to find a worm when cultivating. Never had a flock of birds chasing me either- go down into the valley dirt through (usually reclaimed woodland) and there they were, cue the seagulls.

If you turn that perm pasture up next August in a nice dry spell you will be amazed how quickly and easily it works down, grow one crop, reseed it after, and find a way to make use of it. Enjoy a spot of zero-brome or blackgrass farming, you can even throw Atlantis on it if you really must and watch it curl the AMG up.

 

[Two Tone]

Now this will require insight from someone with more knowledge than me, but does grass/herbal fed livestock HAVE to be an expensive option for producers and consumers? I'll probably let someone answer that before I go on. And perhaps you're right about the difficulties and it will require collaboration between producers, governments, organisations and ready consumers to make the change. But right now it looks like we have to, either way.

You bring up the humans in eco systems, and that's a very good point. We are the end consumers of most of the agriculture products, but we're bad at incorporating ourselves into the nutrient cycle.

I mentioned your very point of incorporating ourselves into the nutrient cycle to my rather wacky vegan, very pro organic, "you farmers are doing it all wrong and ruining the planet" niece the other day.

Poor girl turned almost the same colour as those Soylent green biscuits!

Her almost as wacky boyfriend did make a very good point in response though. He rightly pointed out that although we are end consumers, we do tend to have lived a very long time and consumed a lot before were are able to recycle our bodies into the nutrient cycle.

He did however take a backward step on the subject of recycling treated human waste (sewage), which he didn't much like the idea of, surprisingly!

 

[mikep]

I mentioned your very point of incorporating ourselves into the nutrient cycle to my rather wacky vegan, very pro organic, "you farmers are doing it all wrong and ruining the planet" niece the other day.

Poor girl turned almost the same colour as those Soylent green biscuits!

Her almost as wacky boyfriend did make a very good point in response though. He rightly pointed out that although we are end consumers, we do tend to have lived a very long time and consumed a lot before were are able to recycle our bodies into the nutrient cycle.

He did however take a backward step on the subject of recycling treated human waste (sewage), which he didn't much like the idea of, surprisingly!

They'll grow out of it or spend all their time on twitter, loads like that on there.

 

[doorknob]

They'll grow out of it or spend all their time on twitter, loads like that on there.

Sometimes not. If their parents were green extreme, and the schools now days are green extreme, then heaven forbid, college, which finalize the poor youngsters "green at all cost" life training, they may very well stay that way thru life. It's very similar to all of the no-till vs. conventional farmers. I find that even though my hopes are to go as far dd/no-till as possible, if I dis the others that do not share that line of thought, they will never become curious enough to ask about dd/no-till.

When I come upon people that are green extreme, rather than force my thoughts, I try to ask questions for them answer. Usually if I can make them think for a minute, they start to return a few questions, which makes much more progress getting them to understand both their choices and others needs. Just like anything else, it's all about marketing.

 

[martian]

I don't think there would be bountiful growth on all soils......
Some rubbish heath near here that grows f'all naturally but outdoor pigs and crops such as Lucerne allow the owners to make it much more productive.

Fair comment. There are some pretty miserable heaths about, but a lot of these lost what fertility they had due to dodgy farming practices, sometimes going back as far as the neolithic period. Your point is good though, we can improve (or save) our soils with good farming. Whether it has to be no-till...

 

[Flat 10]

Fair comment. There are some pretty miserable heaths about, but a lot of these lost what fertility they had due to dodgy farming practices, sometimes going back as far as the neolithic period. Your point is good though, we can improve (or save) our soils with good farming. Whether it has to be no-till...

Thanks. I am not a no tiller (yet!) and I have yet to add livestock to the farm but I am trying to improve my soils (albeit from a low base) and I think I am succeeding through careful cultivations, straw incorporation, muck and very much limiting how much the soil is trafficked. I look at your practices with great interest and regret missing groundswell. Going back to your post it is surprising how much our landscapes were altered by farming practices/land uses of 100's of years ago.

 

[mikep]

Sometimes not. If their parents were green extreme, and the schools now days are green extreme, then heaven forbid, college, which finalize the poor youngsters "green at all cost" life training, they may very well stay that way thru life. It's very similar to all of the no-till vs. conventional farmers. I find that even though my hopes are to go as far dd/no-till as possible, if I dis the others that do not share that line of thought, they will never become curious enough to ask about dd/no-till.

When I come upon people that are green extreme, rather than force my thoughts, I try to ask questions for them answer. Usually if I can make them think for a minute, they start to return a few questions, which makes much more progress getting them to understand both their choices and others needs. Just like anything else, it's all about marketing.

Good idea but sometimes they are so strung out about being green that there is only their way.
I often point out that although I may use 2l of round up pre planting I only use 2l diesel whereas organic growers will use 10l+ doing the same
Round up is maybe carcinogenic but diesel definitely is plus I don't mess up the soil ecosystem, often makes them think