Is ploughing bad ?

[SilliamWhale]

too much cheese before bed time

and was your father a ploughman aamoi?
if not how did you get that well above average privileged position of yours to speak from ? genuine question honest answer please.


either way pity you have too stoop so low, and that not what is expected of an ambassador, How would the Finnish veiw that comment?

Ive always been interested in Scandinavian farming what with there challenging short seasons and small arable land area.


bottom line is if you cant say anything sensible , interesting or useful@SilliamWhale , best not to say anything at all boy.

I think you have taken what was obviously a joke rather sensitively.

I've written loads of sensible stuff in the past but its not going to make any difference if your dyed in the wool plough fanatic

 

[Drillman]

The one thing that’s stopping me from trying something different is the sheer cost of the kit involved. I just can’t make the figures add up to buy a half decent drill on my few acres.

And believe me I’ve trawled the tinterweb looking at options and also priced up various drills via the grant scheme

 

[Bury the Trash]

I think you have taken what was obviously a joke rather sensitively.

I've written loads of sensible stuff in the past but its not going to make any difference if your dyed in the wool plough fanatic

i took it a joke for your first post .

thought more of it this morning tho and how privileged we all are here commenting then theres a post with comment like this

The book itself is probably music to the ears of Luddites, conspiracy theorists and the sort of people that are rich enough to only eat organic food. They don’t care that without modern farming techniques, half the world would starve.

well we are all on this thread those sort of people if were honest so its poor nonsense.

Im fanatical about practical stuff , well into detail, especially if it involves low capital cost.

 

[Grass And Grain]

I can't show you the actual workings. But it is something I've picked up on from several places on the forum and various other sources. No doubt it will be part of ELMs.
However, my primary motivation was financial and a reduction in my own Labour, rather than any environmental, which is a bonus.

Everybody is going to have their own 'agenda' within this debate. But on the financial side, I have already saved more than what I will lose when BPS disappears!
And the time to try and learn about it is before it disappears.

As regards rotation and 2nd wheats, generally, I don't grow 2nd wheats. But my 2nd white straw crop is Winter barley.
The rotation is Winter Linseed, then 1st wheat, followed by Winter barley. This ensures very little time between harvest and drilling, without the need for a cover crop. The volunteers from the previous crop do this job instead.


Edit (sorry, had to stop for a meeting):
The reason for the Winter barley originated from my former ploughing, interspersed with 2 separate attempts with Min-till (NOT No-till). It was min-till that caused a Blackgrass explosion here. Hybrid Winter barley proved to be a good Blackgrass suppressant within the rotation, which was always worst in the 2nd white straw crop.
Cheaper than a 2nd wheat, using 2/3rds the fungicides, 20% less Nitrogen and an early harvest.
I wanted to grow conventional Sensation this Autumn, but the processor Wynnstay cocked up the order and could not deliver on time. So I planted all my successfully delivered Bazooka on Zero-tilled land and replaced the undelivered Sensation with 2nd wheat, on 80 acres of what will hopefully be my last ever ploughed and Combi drilled land. This had to have the full works pre-em herbicides and 2 doses of slug pellets so far. Whereas apart from one dose on one patch, no slug pellets on anything zero-till drilled. Yet another win!

You grow w wheat, then follow with w barley.

Could I ask how you cope with wheat volunteers? Genuinely interested to know.

Like you, we follow wheat with w barley, but we plough.

Rightly or wrongly I like w barley in the rotation. If I went dd, then suppose could swap to s barley.

 

[Grass And Grain]

The one thing that’s stopping me from trying something different is the sheer cost of the kit involved. I just can’t make the figures add up to buy a half decent drill on my few acres.

And believe me I’ve trawled the tinterweb looking at options and also priced up various drills via the grant scheme

Try it on one field with a contractor? Dd that field for next 5 years. See how you get on?

Presumably contractor cost will be cheaper than your own plough, cultivate, combi costs.

Use it opportunistically?

Not always easy getting contractor when you want them. Suppose you could plough and combi if they don't turn up.

 

[Drillman]

Try it on one field with a contractor? Dd that field for next 5 years. See how you get on?

Presumably contractor cost will be cheaper than your own plough, cultivate, combi costs.

Use it opportunistically?

Not always easy getting contractor when you want them. Suppose you could plough and combi if they don't turn up.

I know it’s not logical but I want to/like to do it myself.

And only want to do a trial area to start with.

existing kit isn’t worth much and has to stay due to contracting commitments so no funds there to get the ball rolling either.

have seen a direct drill at sensible money but don’t think it’s the right type for our land.

 

[Bury the Trash]

For me the best way to learn about something

I know it’s not logical but I want to/like to do it myself.

And only want to do a trial area to start with.

existing kit isn’t worth much and has to stay due to contracting commitments so no funds there to get the ball rolling either.

have seen a direct drill at sensible money but don’t think it’s the right type for our land.

Actually the way i see it , yes its perfectly logical , same as me that is.

and surely the best way to learn about something is to actually do it .

 

[clbarclay]

I know it’s not logical but I want to/like to do it myself.

And only want to do a trial area to start with.

existing kit isn’t worth much and has to stay due to contracting commitments so no funds there to get the ball rolling either.

have seen a direct drill at sensible money but don’t think it’s the right type for our land.

What is sensible money?

A second hand unidrill has its limitations, certainly on my heavier land, but it still worked well enough (alongside a cheap tine drill) for me before deciding it was worth investing a lot more in a fancier no till drill.

No till doesn't need to be capital intensive.

 

[Two Tone]

You grow w wheat, then follow with w barley.

Could I ask how you cope with wheat volunteers? Genuinely interested to know.

Like you, we follow wheat with w barley, but we plough.

Rightly or wrongly I like w barley in the rotation. If I went dd, then suppose could swap to s barley.

Yes of course, no worries. Glad to help.

So part of the theory with Regen Agriculture is to try not to let soil be growing nothing.
Soils want to grow something (even weeds) to capture Carbon, some of which ends up in the soil from there roots.

Therefore, we don't mind volunteer wheat before planting the Winter Barley (or any volunteer previous crop growing ahead of the next crop).

In the case of WB following WW, we have a 3-4 week window to allow those volunteers to grow. Providing we get a rain event, volunteers always happen.
We therefor apply 1 litre of Roundup immediately pre-drilling.
Some apply it with there pre-em herbicide (we sometimes do this), which as long as it goes on within a week of drilling (pre-emergence of any of the crop we are planting, does the job of knocking out all volunteers from the previous crop just fine.
However, if it rains after drilling, get it on asap!

There is nothing wrong with dd drilling into volunteers that are still green.
I'll just switch computer and show you some extreme examples.
GS4 Grass into wheat,

AB9 winter bird food into wheat.

You don't necessarily have to switch from WB to SB with dd.

 

[Two Tone]

i took it a joke for your first post .

thought more of it this morning tho and how privileged we all are here commenting then theres a post with comment like this

well we are all on this thread those sort of people if were honest so its poor nonsense.

Im fanatical about practical stuff , well into detail, especially if it involves low capital cost.

No offence meant to any Organics growers. You fulfil a market very well.
It’s some of the customers that I’m referring to.

 

[Warnesworth]

No till drills were much cheaper,

I love this fallacy. No-till drills must be expensive.
I can get you a perfectly adequate no-till drill for less than 10K, in fact, it's probably already sat in your shed, stick some new openers on it. Bingo! No-tilling at no cost.

p.s. this isn't rubbishing anyone's type of farming, just promoting an alternative viewpoint so that we can have a discussion and maybe reach a conclusion.

 

[7610 super q]

I love this fallacy. No-till drills must be expensive.
I can get you a perfectly adequate no-till drill for less than 10K, in fact, it's probably already sat in your shed, stick some new openers on it. Bingo! No-tilling at no cost.

p.s. this isn't rubbishing anyone's type of farming, just promoting an alternative viewpoint so that we can have a discussion and maybe reach a conclusion.

What do you mean " adequate ". Loads on ebay for 5k that need £10k to refurbish. My current gear is in good order. I have no wish to down grade.

 

[SilliamWhale]

You grow w wheat, then follow with w barley.

Could I ask how you cope with wheat volunteers? Genuinely interested to know.

Like you, we follow wheat with w barley, but we plough.

Rightly or wrongly I like w barley in the rotation. If I went dd, then suppose could swap to s barley.

At the moment I spray off the winter barley with roundup. I then drill oilseed rape after the bales have cleared (or a cover crop).

I drill it about 1st october and then roll and then spray off (with roundup) and a pre em just before emergence so that I catch as many wheat volunteers as possible.

For me its only feed so its not an issue and its about .05% wheat in the barley.

Its still only roundup once in 10-12 months. If pre harvest roundup got banned I'd re-evaluate

 

[SilliamWhale]

i took it a joke for your first post .

thought more of it this morning tho and how privileged we all are here commenting then theres a post with comment like this

well we are all on this thread those sort of people if were honest so its poor nonsense.

Im fanatical about practical stuff , well into detail, especially if it involves low capital cost.

I don't really understand your point.

I'm sorry if you took offence but I'm pretty sure you know I didn't mean anything offensive

 

[SilliamWhale]

I know it’s not logical but I want to/like to do it myself.

And only want to do a trial area to start with.

existing kit isn’t worth much and has to stay due to contracting commitments so no funds there to get the ball rolling either.

have seen a direct drill at sensible money but don’t think it’s the right type for our land.

You have be to logical sometimes. Contrary to myth we direct drill fans are very logical and rational people. We don't do it because we are religous

Get someone else to try it out on 20 acres for £460.

 

[Warnesworth]

The report in the OP isn't wrong to my understanding, it shows what we know, that no-till leads to stratification of, amongst many things, organic matter (OM) within the soil. But stratification is not a bad thing, all soils are stratified to some extent and not just in OM. What it doesn't show, and very few if any reports show, is that over a number of years no-till (and genuine mob-grazing if managing grassland) can actually build soil which is where big increases in OM and functionality arise. Mob-grazing grassland does this very quickly, listen to Joel Salatin talk about how much soil he has built over his shallow rock in the US where he couldn't even get a electric fencing stake in the ground, due to there not being enough soil over the rock, when he started out 40 yrs ago.

We can all agree that we can grow a tremendous crop of wheat with relatively low N where we plough out long-term grass, slightly less yield when after a short term ley in an arable rotation for similar N, and we can have a similar effect where we cultivate no-till fields. After 2-3 yrs of cultivation this effect wears off and we need to use more N to get the same yield. Why is this? Is it because we have built 'fertility' through not moving the soil? What is this fertility? It's carbon in simple terms, or OM. Where we routinely move the soil, i.e. long term arable, we need to use a lot more N to get the same yield as we could immediately after long-term grass and low N, indicating to me that we have exhausted the fertility , or carbon, stored in the soil. This is where we have soils which are around 3-4% OM and don't drop any lower.

So can we actually build soil, and OM? I believe so, looking at the soil of very long term no-tillers in the UK there is a visible difference in the colour and quality (aggregation & porosity) whilst also an ability to reduce N whilst not loosing yield indicating we are raising the 'fertility' (carbon) content of the soil. We also see an increase in infiltration rates, some soils can no handle 6 inches of rain per hour without a problem. Any ponding that occurs disappears much faster than before.

Cultivated soil may accept rainfall quickly when its dry but once that cultivated layer wets up it is unable to accept any more rain because the natural connectivity between the subsoil and topsoil is broken. The water cannot percolate into the subsoil as fast as it can into the top cultivated layer and so it ponds or runs-off.

Now all of what I talk about above happens on farms following a Conservation Agriculture approach, part of which is no-till, so my get out caveat is this to all those who wish to disagree. A lot of no-till I see mentioned on-here and other media (social or print) are not following this strategy, as far as I can see, and to my mind the soil 'improvement' only comes when you are following the strategy. Much like baking a cake, if you remove one of the ingredients don't expect your cake to turn out like one of Mary Berry's.

These are my experiences and I am lucky enough to work with people who have been doing it a long time, as well as helping those starting out from the beginning. I would also add that I have yet to find a soil that cannot or will not respond positively anywhere in the country.

My point is that while I don't have a problem with cultivation, why would you bother (unless you grow roots or veg etc) when you can have the upsides of less capital requirement, more time with family, less risk (yes, when done correctly its much less risky, certainly in the last two autumns before this one we had much more wheat in the ground than the average), lower inputs (but these come later).

 

[Warnesworth]

What do you mean " adequate ". Loads on ebay for 5k that need £10k to refurbish. My current gear is in good order. I have no wish to down grade.

Did I mention anything about the current state, or quality, of your kit?
I was trying to show that no-till drills do not have to be expensive, thereby removing one of the many objections people who want to try no-till have because they have read it on here or somewhere else. i.e. don't push the fallacy that no-till drills are expensive, they can be, but don't have to be, expensive.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

You'll be joining cults like Extinction Rebellion soon, I can see you being sucked in.

I listen to the evidence even though so much of it saddens me. And despite the trail of destruction left behind by human activity, I find the history of civilisation really interesting, but not as interesting as natural functioning ecosystems. So yes, maybe I am being sucked in.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

The one thing that’s stopping me from trying something different is the sheer cost of the kit involved. I just can’t make the figures add up to buy a half decent drill on my few acres.

And believe me I’ve trawled the tinterweb looking at options and also priced up various drills via the grant scheme

When we started, the only arable kit I had was a slug pelleter. I had no choice as there were no direct drills within miles (apart from a few unused Claydons) So the only thing I bought was a 3m drill, brand new for £23k and borrowed a neighbour's tractor, wouldn't have had much change out of that if I had bought a plough, never mind all the other tillage tackle (and another drill). So I would say it's not the cost of the drill but the other equipment if you want to be able to do both.

The power requirement is lower too. I now pull a 4m dd with 100 hp at 11 to 1500rpm. It uses 3.5 to 6 litres of diesel per ha depending on conditions. So there is a saving there too.

I accept investing in a dd when you already have money tied up in tillage tackle is more difficult to justify

 

[delilah]

Why can’t people say what’s good for their system and leave it at that and not need to slate what others do.

To give my answer to that one: I'm not slating what anyone chooses to do. I have never said a bad word about DD even though we plough everything.

What I am slating, and the only reason I bother to try and have an input to any thread that Defra may be lurking on, is public money being used to subsidize one crop establishment method over others. There is no public good in doing so.

edit: just in case she lost the will to live after a few pages of farmers bitching at each other: @Janet Hughes Defra