Is there any future in suckler cows ?

[Kiwi Pete]

Could you not do both?

Labour intensive calving/twinning in period, then low input grazing, with focus on pasture management the rest of the year?

Replacements could be selected from cows which wean 2.

It's hardly labour-intensive, all you need are decent quiet moos and a little patience.

Moon will have weaned 3 calves by 30 months of age, bless her

 

[Blaithin]

And here's a photo from today of three of this years calves.

From left to right, is a single heifer born March 29; a single steer born April 9; and a heifer born February 21 who was raised with 2 other heifers on the same cow.

All three of these calves are by the same bull although the cows are all different breeds.

The two singles were weaned end of Oct/Nov. Multi heifer was weaned in Sept. So all were roughly 7 months at weaning.

There's nothing to visually say that the one heifer was raised with two other calves. In no way is she stunted or unthrifty. In fact, here's the three of them the week they were weaned (Ignore the horny one in the back, he's the next freezer filler.) They aren't as big as a 7 month old single would be, obviously, but they're a plenty decent size.

 

[M-J-G]

You're very stuck on titles/names of systems aren't you.

Whatever type of system suits the farmers ideals, goals and location. It can be as flexible as the farmer chooses. It could be done 100% confinement with all AI or it could be done 100% grass and live cover. Grass, TMR, grain.... Purebreds, crossbreeds, full dairy, part dairy....

While I don't have 25 animals because I don't have the land, I manage multiple calves adequately on less than prime grazing and winter forage. If I had the access I'd be rotating them quicker for better grass and wintering them on better stockpiled forages instead of just relying on hay. That would ideally help me cut down on the grain use I periodically require as well.

I've had the gauntlet of types of cows from an old cull 9 yr old Holstein, to a 4 yr old Fleckvieh, both from dairies, to a Jersey x Highland and a Milking Shorthorn. All successfully raised at least 3 calves per lactation with only the Jersey x Highland being unworthy of a second attempt purely because she's a sow who would rather wean her own calf than take others. The first year with each cow is always a learning curve as I learn what they're capable of and they adjust from what they're used to to what I do. I don't not give them grain however they aren't grained like in the dairy - in the case of the cattle from the dairy for sure.

Because of my less than adequate forage I have run into issues where if I push them too hard they have delayed breed back. I don't fuss too much over that, I just know when they're bred back for before I dry them off. The first year I had the Fleck she weaned me 2400 lbs of calf and did fine, however it delayed her breed back from the December calving she was originally set to have, to a May calving. It wasn't an issue, I just put another calf on her for the last part of that lactation. Which means she raised me 5 calves in 15 months. None of them hers. I don't mind a delay in that kind of situation.

When one is dealing with half and quarter dairy you do run the risk of raising a replacement that doesn't produce what's required. I have a quarter Jersey that, while a great producer for a single, couldn't easily manage two. Her mother is a ridiculous producer (but also the sow cow), but she just didn't get that kind of production. It's a lottery but she still makes a great replacement for the average herd.

I don't stress over the potential for a scattered calving block. It can be a struggle to find calves if I all of a sudden need 8 at once and it can hurt my pocket book. So if they're spread out and one isn't extremely close to the others, again, it's not a big bother. I also take the approach similar to if I was running a spring calving herd and a fall calving herd. The market is fairly consistent no matter the time of year for 5-6 weight calves. If I have spring born calves ready to go when they're that weight they're in time for fall run for the feedlots. If I have later born calves when they're reaching that weight it's approaching spring and many operations are looking for that size of calves for background systems on pasture.

My calves also tend to be fairly quiet because they are worked with for the first few weeks. Even if they end up being hands off the rest of the year. I prefer not to send them to the auction so I market them privately for people wanting to raise their own beef. They appreciate the more quiet calves instead of the range calves.

One day, when I have more consistent forage, I would like to pull the calves at 4-5 months instead of 6-7 months and get the cows to raise a second batch. This could almost double my calf crop.

Flexibility in multi suckled herds is a key component I believe. You need to be flexible in labour, in feed, in calving block, and in breed back time especially, but otherwise it can be a perfectly functioning system. It is suited for smaller herds than larger IMO.

If you go in thinking you need to make it work with your 200 head herd that all calve within 6 weeks, breed back within 60 days and never dip below a 3 BCS while getting very little supplementation then yeah, what I talk about is going to seem like a complete gong show to you.

Not stuck on titles, I simply wondered what you proposed, since you seemed down on "farting around" with a set number of cows that match in with the areas of land suitable for grazing on a particular farm.

Scattered out calving and buying in calves is of no interest to me. Disease risk and variation in marketing dates and types being the main downsides, the aim is to fill a lorry and get it weighed, which does however fit in with your idea of not sending calves to auction. That way calves go to the same finisher in a group, as opposed to being sold in small numbers to be mixed with lots of strange cattle.

Calving over holiday and harvest times would also be a no no.
Adding extra calves and labour into that would even more of a negative.

AI is out, apart from the odd pedigree cow that I want a bull from, so spread out calving while using natural service would be risking heifer calves being caught by the bull, adding either labour or hassle, which
again I have no interest in.

If people want to multi suckle they can do what they want, I'm not keen on creating work, I'm more in to making a system as simple as possible and scaling it up to fit in with other farm enterprises.
If we were to cut cow numbers in half in an aim to multi suckle calves, what does one do with the other half of the grassland that cannot be cropped? Rent it out? Plant it with trees?
I'm not keen on becoming a landlord or a forester.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

Because creep feeding nearly always means you get an improvement in growth rates at the point in an animals life that it’s feed conversion efficiency is near its best. If done properly is cost effective in terms of growth and their for acts to dilute some of you other fixed costs by increasing Kgs of beef produced per measured unit.
Unfortunately your traditional breeds that get fat on grass don’t really have the growth rates and then your kgs produced per ha ends up pretty poor, ok if you have access to vast areas of cheap land but not in the UK.

The voice of experience. Couldn't agree more. If you've ever kept cattle creep feeding calves is a no-brainer

 

[egbert]

The voice of experience. Couldn't agree more. If you've ever kept cattle creep feeding calves is a no-brainer

I have kept a few cows, and I find that summer creep feeding is a huge drain on labour -and not always proportionate to the gain.
Cows roaming the hill don't always lend themselves to hanging around fixed points.
The standard 3 point linkage feeders don't fit over 2 bridges i have to work round.

Winter creeping outdoors - IE when the cows are at a round feeder, and you're visiting the site daily- worked for me as long as I could stop the calves from drinking at sh1tty puddles-which I couldn't. that wasn't pretty.
Winter indoors works fine, but that's about it under my current system.

Not every farm is the same.

 

[M-J-G]

The voice of experience. Couldn't agree more. If you've ever kept cattle creep feeding calves is a no-brainer

I wouldn't totally agree.

Not for bulls or heifers that are destined for breeding.
A lot of store buyers that I know won't buy from farms where they know that calves are crept from an early age.

On a paddock grazing system it leads to a lit of faffing about moving feeders every few days, particularly during bust times like harvest and silage where machines are tied up.

I've generally always creep fed bullocks for a month to 6 weeks, but they don't wean much heavier than the heifers. There is generally only ever a difference of 0.01 to 0.02 kg in DLWG between them, over a 10 or so year period.
But it means the bullocks tend to get onto feed quicker after weaning so the can go on a lorry sooner.

But, it's not a no brainer at all.
Managing autumn grass appropriately would be more efficient and will meet the needs of most calves, including relatively fast growing continentals.

 

[Chae1]

We've a dairy cow, daisy as a foster mum. Think she reared 3 calves last year.

Cheaper than milk powder and she has a great temperament, happily accepts new calves.

Creep feeding calves for us is a no brainer too. Everything gets a creep feeder.

 

[Blaithin]

If we were to cut cow numbers in half in an aim to multi suckle calves, what does one do with the other half of the grassland that cannot be cropped? Rent it out? Plant it with trees?
I'm not keen on becoming a landlord or a forester.

One of the bigger issues in my location is over grazing. Cut numbers down and you’d expect healthier grasslands.

Cut breeding numbers down and you also now have land available for finishing some of those additional calves on grass which can open up doors for other markets. Replacement heifers, background cattle, grassfed direct marketing...

The management methods will always come down to the producers goals. Nothing is ever really impossible, it can just simply be undesirable to certain people.

 

[Samcowman]

thats what I do

That’s fine as long as you know the limitations of your system and also the benefits and limitations of others. As long as you have developed the best system which suits you, your environment and cattle.
No one can say someone else must choose system x because they may not be aware of the other persons goals. They can only suggest other systems or adaptations which may help.

 

[tepapa]

That’s fine as long as you know the limitations of your system and also the benefits and limitations of others. As long as you have developed the best system which suits you, your environment and cattle.
No one can say someone else must choose system x because they may not be aware of the other persons goals. They can only suggest other systems or adaptations which may help.

I agree with your point, but what happens when your chosen system that suits you and your farm isn't profitable? Which will the situation many farmers will find themselves in.

 

[som farmer]

my early post, was a view that we took of suckle cows, we look at what we do in our farming, every year, with the 'profit' being the driver, carry on doing what we have always done, is not how we farm, this year was keen to look at suckle, because of info received, but dairy will continue. It was a pretty hard look at suckle farm systems, and I thought pretty contentious, and was expecting to receive a very negative response, 20+ likes, didn't expect that, nor the huge response. There are all different systems of farming, and 1 must look at the end of year accounts, to see how your system fits your farm, at the end of the day, we have to be profitable, to feed our families.
Another thing we do, is subtract the subs from our profit, and see what's left then.
The conclusions I have come to, after reading 50 pages of posts, is that a lot of farmers, are concerned at the future of their herds, looking at other ways etc, great, but a lot do not want to change, for many reasons, hill herds are a different kettle of fish, and are very limited in the ability to change. But, for the rest, I am certain the biggest opportunity for change, is in grassland management, and all producing a more 'standard' end product. Any farmer set stocking, go and speak to a spr grazing dairy herd, you will be amazed at how productive grass can be ! But change is here, now, and, I am passionate about farming, it has been the most important thing in my life, for 50 plus years, I would hate to see massive negative changes to our industry, and it has been fantastic to see, so many farmers, that are looking hard at their systems, looking at systems in other countries, how they do it, and by just, making farmers think about their system, I hope it's been a successful post, thankyou for all the replies.

 

[Chae1]

Grassland management, rotational grazing.

Why did everyone stop doing it first time round?

Its not a new concept.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Grassland management, rotational grazing.

Why did everyone stop doing it first time round?

Its not a new concept.

Laziness and lack of financial requirement due to subs.

 

[Henarar]

Grassland management, rotational grazing.

Why did everyone stop doing it first time round?

Its not a new concept.

They didn't

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Grassland management, rotational grazing.

Why did everyone stop doing it first time round?

Its not a new concept.

Better tractors and disc mowers, who really wants to sacrifice individual animal performance when you could bring the food to the cow?
And, take the sh!t away again?
And, reseed the grass instead of letting some reseed itself?

A lot of people just don't want to do whatever it takes to make money via "old fashioned pasture management", and you can see how long their pastures last them. Never mind.

Grass can cost a lot to grow or nothing to grow, it's all down to what you like to look at.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Better tractors and disc mowers, who really wants to sacrifice individual animal performance when you could bring the food to the cow?
And, take the sh!t away again?
And, reseed the grass instead of letting some reseed itself?

A lot of people just don't want to do whatever it takes to make money via "old fashioned pasture management", and you can see how long their pastures last them. Never mind.

Grass can cost a lot to grow or nothing to grow, it's all down to what you like to look at.

100%. Focus on individual animal performance has compromised red meat production in the UK.

 

[choochter]

That’s fine as long as you know the limitations of your system and also the benefits and limitations of others. As long as you have developed the best system which suits you, your environment and cattle.
No one can say someone else must choose system x because they may not be aware of the other persons goals. They can only suggest other systems or adaptations which may help.

my system of summer/winter grassland management may not be the 'best' but it is cheap

 

[Kiwi Pete]

100%. Focus on individual animal performance has compromised red meat production in the UK.

Neatly mimicked in the NZ dairy industry, all it takes is a bit too much income and some overvalued cows.... and suddenly the cows "needed" all sorts of stuff.
New grass, concrete slabs, concentrates, bales..... cows never "needed" these, or at least good cows never did. Keep breeding from the also-rans and you get soft cows. Same with farmers.

Funny then how these "improved" genetics incur more cost than ever before? Same with farmers.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

my system of summer/winter grassland management may not be the 'best' but it is cheap

Then it likely is a more fit for purpose grassland management paradigm than many?

Beef is the cheap meat, grass is the cheap feed - it was never rocket science

 

[Chae1]

Better tractors and disc mowers, who really wants to sacrifice individual animal performance when you could bring the food to the cow?
And, take the sh!t away again?
And, reseed the grass instead of letting some reseed itself?

A lot of people just don't want to do whatever it takes to make money via "old fashioned pasture management", and you can see how long their pastures last them. Never mind.

Grass can cost a lot to grow or nothing to grow, it's all down to what you like to look at.

How will rotational grazing reduce feed brought to cow and sh!t carted away again?

We've still over 250 spring calving cows outside on stubble fields.

Carting feed to them, but no sheds, bedding, muck to cart away.

They are making a mess of stubble, have sacrificed 50 acres of grass keeping cows on them. There a mess.