Is there any future in suckler cows ?

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Its relatively new grass. Under 5 years old.

It doesn't do them full season, couple grass fields next to it and they normally spend some time in them.

I think the best way to assess benefits would be with feeding cattle. Have a batch on paddocks and a batch on normal system and monitor weight gain through season.

In my opinion we don't do it properly. Graze it far too hard before shifting them. Give it extra fert.

I follow Pete's threads and see sense in what he says. Had a bit of a eureka moment at groundswell when i saw @martian shifting his cow's and its something I'd like to try and replicate here.

There's 3 of us at home and I'm not really involved with cattle much. I don't really want to go ramming my ideas down other people's throats and telling them there doing it all wrong!

From what we've done up till now i can't see big savings from rotational grazing.

We are way overstocked for acres we have, buy in a lot of feed and rent a lot of grass. Don't own any land. High labour costs.

First way I'd look at making savings is cut back numbers and reduce reliance on seasonal grass lets and bought in feed, buying in good silage in at £10.50/bale at moment though so buying in doesn't look like bad option.
Rotational grazing isn't exactly the best option available, but it's a start.
As you'll know what we do isn't just moving the mob around to where the grass is the right length based on advice from the fert + seed reps but what suits YOUR LAND, we ran out of grass with rotational grazing... just as my neighbour ran out with set stocking.
And he is severely understocked on the block next to me, at 1.1 ewes/ac

We are currently over ten times his sheep stocking rate - and we're running cows calves and bulls on top of that.

In some respects rotational grazing is a bit like min-till, the worst of both worlds and quite disheartening at times - whereas "proper" notill or proper adaptive multipaddock grazing brings results - both rely on the same principles of conservation and soil protection
 

bitwrx

Member
Trouble with splitting all your fields into small fields is they all need a water trough, which means a clarty mess around each water trough
Then you need a gateway into each field which means another clarty mess in each field
Half the field turns to clarts

Appreciate this vid is probably a world away from your farm (notably it being from the other side of this world, where all the grass grows downwards), but there's some good stuff in there that can probably be adapted to apply anywhere:
1 - mobile throughs, never in the same place twice. How much damage can they do standing by a trough for 24/48/72 hours?
2 - flexible fencing -> no gates -> no muddy gateways.


There's loads of other examples out there of people who've taken innovative approaches to solving problems specific to their situations. A couple of my favourite ideas are:
- Automatic/timed fence "pogos" that lift the fence up for the cattle to move underneath it. (Even lifting the fence manually is a decent idea. Never thought of doing it for cattle, even though we do it for the pigs all the time.)
- @holwellcourtfarm's water trough on skids. Simply tow behind the quad, as you move the cattle.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Appreciate this vid is probably a world away from your farm (notably it being from the other side of this world, where all the grass grows downwards), but there's some good stuff in there that can probably be adapted to apply anywhere:
1 - mobile throughs, never in the same place twice. How much damage can they do standing by a trough for 24/48/72 hours?
2 - flexible fencing -> no gates -> no muddy gateways.


There's loads of other examples out there of people who've taken innovative approaches to solving problems specific to their situations. A couple of my favourite ideas are:
- Automatic/timed fence "pogos" that lift the fence up for the cattle to move underneath it. (Even lifting the fence manually is a decent idea. Never thought of doing it for cattle, even though we do it for the pigs all the time.)
- @holwellcourtfarm's water trough on skids. Simply tow behind the quad, as you move the cattle.
You can see why I want to put all the microtroughs in place from the beginning?
Although quite quick to move 200 cattle in the video, would be a lot simpler to just move them if the water was already sorted
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Fife
Appreciate this vid is probably a world away from your farm (notably it being from the other side of this world, where all the grass grows downwards), but there's some good stuff in there that can probably be adapted to apply anywhere:
1 - mobile throughs, never in the same place twice. How much damage can they do standing by a trough for 24/48/72 hours?
2 - flexible fencing -> no gates -> no muddy gateways.


There's loads of other examples out there of people who've taken innovative approaches to solving problems specific to their situations. A couple of my favourite ideas are:
- Automatic/timed fence "pogos" that lift the fence up for the cattle to move underneath it. (Even lifting the fence manually is a decent idea. Never thought of doing it for cattle, even though we do it for the pigs all the time.)
- @holwellcourtfarm's water trough on skids. Simply tow behind the quad, as you move the cattle.

Lifting fences worked for sheep as well.
 

bitwrx

Member
Are there threads on here already about rotational/paddock grazing? Interested
These are the ones I keep coming back to. No doubt there are more.




Also check out the pasture pod:

And read part 1 of André Voisin's "Grass Productivity". Great info on the "why" of grazing rotationally. He just makes it seem like the rational thing to do. :)
 

johnspeehs

Member
Location
Co Antrim
Yes over 90% salers now, calving at 2 first 2 calvings to saler/Hereford.

Yes those were ours on FB on anm page.

I'm not on Facebook so not entirely sure.

Thanks @Chae1 , super cattle, im pretty sure they were yours. We would like to go down the salers route but nearly impossible to get here and two prices when you do see them. Went and looked at 20 bulling hfrs on saturday, £1350 and they wern't all the right ones :(
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
it seems to me, beef farmers are trying to find reasons not to measure, and fully utilise the cheapest feed on their farms, why ? Plate meters tell you what you actually have, in a field, when you know what is really there, you can see how long it will feed your cows, no gimmicks, no lies, but actual, unarguable fact, but I can hear farmers , load of crap, I know what i'm doing, I don't need anyone telling me what I already know. But, unless you measure the grass, you really do not know - you only think you know. Some farmers strip graze, fine, do they backfence ? If they don't, try it, you will see the new grass shoots, in 24 hrs, at peak growth we will be down to a 14 day cycle, each feed a high quality grass, at its max value, if a paddock has gone 'over', cut it for silage bales, to feed if grass growth slows right down. You can make your paddocks using electric, as the season progresses, make them bigger. Really wet weather, graze them for 2 hours, bring them in to concrete/ sacrifice area, with a bale, I can hear farmers saying rubbish, why is it rubbish ? The cattle will have eaten the best of the grass, why leave them in there to trample the rest in ? Good grass is the cheapest quality feed you can possibly get, and unless you monitor growth/stage, you have no idea what is really there. The longest our cows stay in a paddock, without a backfence, is 3 periods, ie 36 hours, but always fresh grass every feed, Of course, its easier to turn a bunch of cattle, into a field, xnumber of days, oh eaten the grass, time to move them. That, has cost you, the number of days, in that field, minus 1 day, of highly valuable top quality feed.
Don't knock it, till you have tried it. Some spring grazers, are achieving fantastic yields of grass, measured in kg of milk solids/acre, we are paid for milk solids, that's dairy, good grass will make your sucklers give more, better quality milk, which in turn, will increase growth rate of your calves, and isn't that what you want ?
 

Sharpy

Member
Livestock Farmer
it seems to me, beef farmers are trying to find reasons not to measure, and fully utilise the cheapest feed on their farms, why ? Plate meters tell you what you actually have, in a field, when you know what is really there, you can see how long it will feed your cows, no gimmicks, no lies, but actual, unarguable fact, but I can hear farmers , load of crap, I know what i'm doing, I don't need anyone telling me what I already know. But, unless you measure the grass, you really do not know - you only think you know. Some farmers strip graze, fine, do they backfence ? If they don't, try it, you will see the new grass shoots, in 24 hrs, at peak growth we will be down to a 14 day cycle, each feed a high quality grass, at its max value, if a paddock has gone 'over', cut it for silage bales, to feed if grass growth slows right down. You can make your paddocks using electric, as the season progresses, make them bigger. Really wet weather, graze them for 2 hours, bring them in to concrete/ sacrifice area, with a bale, I can hear farmers saying rubbish, why is it rubbish ? The cattle will have eaten the best of the grass, why leave them in there to trample the rest in ? Good grass is the cheapest quality feed you can possibly get, and unless you monitor growth/stage, you have no idea what is really there. The longest our cows stay in a paddock, without a backfence, is 3 periods, ie 36 hours, but always fresh grass every feed, Of course, its easier to turn a bunch of cattle, into a field, xnumber of days, oh eaten the grass, time to move them. That, has cost you, the number of days, in that field, minus 1 day, of highly valuable top quality feed.
Don't knock it, till you have tried it. Some spring grazers, are achieving fantastic yields of grass, measured in kg of milk solids/acre, we are paid for milk solids, that's dairy, good grass will make your sucklers give more, better quality milk, which in turn, will increase growth rate of your calves, and isn't that what you want ?
The reason for carrying on as before I think is laziness, maybe mental, maybe physical, but laziness. Fed up hearing "we have always done it this way, / people will think we are daft/ too much work/ no need" but mostly what is meant is "I cannot be arsed".
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
The reason for carrying on as before I think is laziness, maybe mental, maybe physical, but laziness. Fed up hearing "we have always done it this way, / people will think we are daft/ too much work/ no need" but mostly what is meant is "I cannot be arsed".
Not only that, a lot of farmers are scared of grass, act like they hate seeing it.... they keep their farms kept neat like a golf-course and if they get a blade of grass feel compelled "to utilise it" before "it turns to rubbish" which drastically limits how much free energy they put into their soil/how long they can graze for before it gets muddy and they have to house/put onto their crops

Platemeters help get you there; a decent crisis helps you realise that grass needs to be grass and to stop cutting it down - a cow never starved her calf just because there are seed heads visible when the days draw in.
It isn't there if you mow your grass off

That's why I put so much cereal seed in winter covercrop mixes, mud insurance
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
Was just at a workshop today where there was a speaker on Carbon Markets. There's two protocols in the works for cattle producers here. Grassland Conservation and Grassland Restoration.

When these protocols are online and running, if a producer can show what they could be making by using the pasture for other methods - hard stocking, crop farming, golf course, whatever - and instead invest towards conserving or restoring and sequestering carbon, then they will get offset credits. The price of these offsets is predicted to skyrocket. So if a producer can increase not only their beneficial environmental impact but also get reimbursed monetarily for it, would systems such as AMP become more interesting to those who "Can't be bothered to move cows so often"

I'll admit I like summer for it's hands off ability. I can leave and the cows can feed themselves. However AMP can be as flexible as you need it and if you want to pee off for a week just give them a larger area.

It was mentioned today that the UK had a media release this week/last week about paying farmers for Ecosystem Goods and Services. Is that not something anyone on this thread thinks they can take advantage of?

If it's aversion to change or the thought that it'll be so much more extra work that sets people off from such management techniques, surely increased compensation and alternative methods of earning money should be a good motivator.
 

Bill the Bass

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cumbria
Was just at a workshop today where there was a speaker on Carbon Markets. There's two protocols in the works for cattle producers here. Grassland Conservation and Grassland Restoration.

When these protocols are online and running, if a producer can show what they could be making by using the pasture for other methods - hard stocking, crop farming, golf course, whatever - and instead invest towards conserving or restoring and sequestering carbon, then they will get offset credits. The price of these offsets is predicted to skyrocket. So if a producer can increase not only their beneficial environmental impact but also get reimbursed monetarily for it, would systems such as AMP become more interesting to those who "Can't be bothered to move cows so often"

I'll admit I like summer for it's hands off ability. I can leave and the cows can feed themselves. However AMP can be as flexible as you need it and if you want to pee off for a week just give them a larger area.

It was mentioned today that the UK had a media release this week/last week about paying farmers for Ecosystem Goods and Services. Is that not something anyone on this thread thinks they can take advantage of?

If it's aversion to change or the thought that it'll be so much more extra work that sets people off from such management techniques, surely increased compensation and alternative methods of earning money should be a good motivator.

We may be paid for this, we may not-who knows? But the uk media and civil service just want rid of livestock really.
 

Werzle

Member
Location
Midlands
The reason for carrying on as before I think is laziness, maybe mental, maybe physical, but laziness. Fed up hearing "we have always done it this way, / people will think we are daft/ too much work/ no need" but mostly what is meant is "I cannot be arsed".
Usually just glad to get them turned out so we can move on with other jobs. Moving them all time is going to add up in man hours and its a cheap easy shot to band about" lazy" and "cannt be arsed". Most gimmicks come and go but the good ideas get practiced and stick . The more i move mine the more miserable they become, bawl to be moved and bawl to move back once they know theres somewhere else to go
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Fife
Usually just glad to get them turned out so we can move on with other jobs. Moving them all time is going to add up in man hours and its a cheap easy shot to band about" lazy" and "cannt be arsed". Most gimmicks come and go but the good ideas get practiced and stick . The more i move mine the more miserable they become, bawl to be moved and bawl to move back once they know theres somewhere else to go

It takes less than 10mins to move a mob of 1,000 sheep. Cattle will learn the system at least as fast.

Moving them daily is just over an hour a week. You'd be spending that time looking at them anyway.

Moving cattle increases profitability. Grassland management is the biggest driver of profit on sheep and beef systems.

If you're a full time livestock farmer what else do you have to do?
 

Werzle

Member
Location
Midlands
It takes less than 10mins to move a mob of 1,000 sheep. Cattle will learn the system at least as fast.

Moving them daily is just over an hour a week. You'd be spending that time looking at them anyway.

Moving cattle increases profitability. Grassland management is the biggest driver of profit on sheep and beef systems.

If you're a full time livestock farmer what else do you have to do?
Take 10mins to get down the fields! it hasnt caught on for a reason imo and there is champion stock and stockman not doing it who "are" hard working , but do whatever floats your boat
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Fife
Take 10mins to get down the fields! it hasnt caught on for a reason imo and there is champion stock and stockman not doing it who "are" hard working , but do whatever floats your boat

The reason it hasn't caught on is to date it hasn't needed to, tax payer funded subs mean systems don't need to be profitable. And grants for sheds and equipment have encouraged expensive non profit making systems under the guise of "free money".

Surely you're going down your fields to check stock every day anyway?
 

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