Is this the start of surrender?

[Hfd Cattle]

President Zekensky saying "we can't join NATO "
Is this music to Putins ears ?
Is it the start of surrender ?

I ask because I don't know !

 

[czechmate]

Negotiations

 

[Werzle]

I think he knows nato are a waste of time and ukraine is better off a strong independant nation. Putin only needs to convince the majority of his people that he won and with control of state media he can.

Clown ed davey in poland today trying to point score and flood the uk with ukranians who actually would prefer to go home if a peace deal can be done in a week or two. He still hasnt got over brexit.

 

[Hindsight]

What will the Finns and Swedes make of it?

 

[BrianV]

If the Ukrainian’s now agree to remain independent & out of the EU & NATO & all the Russians leave Ukraine then maybe common sense would say stay exactly as they are, but then when did common sense ever appeal to politicians !

 

[Hindsight]

If the Ukrainian’s now agree to remain independent & out of the EU & NATO & all the Russians leave Ukraine then maybe common sense would say stay exactly as they are, but then when did common sense ever appeal to politicians !

If you have a moment and have not just been listening to Radio 4 News, then I would recommend the interview at 7.50 with ex head of MI6 2014 - 2020 Alex Younger. A tad more complicated Brian. And for us in the UK this is WW3 as it is not just a war of Ukraine against Russia, this is a war of democratic societies against totalitarian regimes, in the main China and its supplicant Russia. And autocrats around the world are watching closely. A proxy war, but proxy wars have been the case through time.

Alex Younger - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BrianV]

If you have a moment and have not just been listening to Radio 4 News, then I would recommend the interview at 7.50 with ex head of MI6 2014 - 2020 Alex Younger. A tad more complicated Brian. And for us in the UK this is WW3 as it is not just a war of Ukraine against Russia, this is a war of democratic societies against totalitarian regimes, in the main China and its supplicant Russia. And autocrats around the world are watching closely. A proxy war, but proxy wars have been the case through time.

A proxy war that the weak West will have been seen to have lost I think

 

[Hindsight]

A proxy war that the weak West will have been seen to have lost I think

Goodness Brian. This war has been going for several years already. As in 1939 the shooting started on Sept 1 1939, but the war started one could say in 1918, but for the purpose of this reply I will say around 2010. The shooting proper started 19 days ago. Since 1991 the 'west' has operated a policy of detente with both Russia and China, built on trade and building wealth in all countries. The Russians had natural resources, China lots of people to manufacture. It was becoming quite obvious from 2010 that the political system in both of those states was insufficiently robust to prevent the move to totalitarianism. And eventually that would have to be confronted. Today is the time. And for next few years we will see how that plays out. Other major countries, the Arabs, Indians and Pakistan, many African countries will have to decide their future. This war is not ending soon. I may leave your farm, once you have given me the deeds to those Meadows, but unless you stop me I will be back. Anyway, this is early in the day to be in the pub taproom, Cheers.

 

[Ashtree]

I heard Zelenskiy say, Ukraine would not join NATO. He did not say, it would not join the EU.
Putin is personally fukkkkkd in any case. Russia economically is pushed back a hundred years. The Russian military, is now exposed as a busted flush. Germany is buying F35’s.
Looks to me like Russia won’t be in a position to tell any country what to do, for a very long time indeed.

 

[renewablejohn]

President Zekensky saying "we can't join NATO "
Is this music to Putins ears ?
Is it the start of surrender ?

I ask because I don't know !

Just a negotiating position, have a look on the deal which was put in place to allow East Germany to be joined with West Germany. If it worked then there is no reason why a similar deal should not be approved by Russia now. Whether it is acceptable to the Ukraine is a different matter.

 

[BrianV]

I heard Zelenskiy say, Ukraine would not join NATO. He did not say, it would not join the EU.
Putin is personally fukkkkkd in any case. Russia economically is pushed back a hundred years. The Russian military, is now exposed as a busted flush. Germany is buying F35’s.
Looks to me like Russia won’t be in a position to tell any country what to do, for a very long time indeed.

Let's really hope so, if that's the case at least some good will have come from this!

 

[BrianV]

Goodness Brian. This war has been going for several years already. As in 1939 the shooting started on Sept 1 1939, but the war started one could say in 1918, but for the purpose of this reply I will say around 2010. The shooting proper started 19 days ago. Since 1991 the 'west' has operated a policy of detente with both Russia and China, built on trade and building wealth in all countries. The Russians had natural resources, China lots of people to manufacture. It was becoming quite obvious from 2010 that the political system in both of those states was insufficiently robust to prevent the move to totalitarianism. And eventually that would have to be confronted. Today is the time. And for next few years we will see how that plays out. Other major countries, the Arabs, Indians and Pakistan, many African countries will have to decide their future. This war is not ending soon. I may leave your farm, once you have given me the deeds to those Meadows, but unless you stop me I will be back. Anyway, this is early in the day to be in the pub taproom, Cheers.

According to Jeremy Bowen in Ukraine this all went wrong in 2008 when NATO invited Ukraine & Georgia to join it's club, they then changed their minds but didn't officially think to tell them, Putin has been planning this alternative ever since that date & I guess Covid has given him the opportunity to act on it!

 

[DrWazzock]

Maybe Ukraine has proved it doesn’t need to join NATO.
Maybe there is a lesson there that having your own up to date independent defence capability is worth a lot more than relying on a committee that can only offer hot air and waffle.
It’s a bit like having your own combine in a wet harvest. It might be old and battered but at least it’s there when you need it.

 

[Hindsight]

Maybe Ukraine has proved it doesn’t need to join NATO.
Maybe there is a lesson there that having your own up to date independent defence capability is worth a lot more than relying on a committee that can only offer hot air and waffle.
It’s a bit like having your own combine in a wet harvest. It might be old and battered but at least it’s there when you need it.

I thought you might use the Cyclone as your example. And do not forget the heavy lift USAF and UK planes pouring arms into Ukraine. And the Tankers refuelling the Intel Planes on constant patrol just off Ukraine and Belorus, sharing live data with the Ukrainian forces. This is a non open but not concealed NATO conflict.

 

[BrianV]

I thought you might use the Cyclone as your example. And do not forget the heavy lift USAF and UK planes pouring arms into Ukraine. And the Tankers refuelling the Intel Planes on constant patrol just off Ukraine and Belorus, sharing live data with the Ukrainian forces. This is a non open but not concealed NATO conflict.

I wonder which which is worse for NATO, Ukraine losing to Russia by being abandoned by NATO or Ukraine losing to Russia despite NATO's weak help?

 

[Hindsight]

I wonder which which is worse for NATO, Ukraine losing to Russia by being abandoned by NATO or Ukraine losing to Russia despite NATO's weak help?

No idea. Time will tell.

 

[neilo]

President Zekensky saying "we can't join NATO "
Is this music to Putins ears ?
Is it the start of surrender ?

I ask because I don't know !

I would have thought it most likely giving an increasingly bogged down Putin a way out. He can withdraw (with his tail between his legs and a much weakened army) claiming he has achieved his goal, whilst Ukraine are in the same position, politically anyway, that they were previously, when they had weren't going to be admitted to NATO in the foreseeable future anyway.

Whether the Ukrainians cede the breakaway regions and Crimea will be of interest, or push them back to the original border while they have the upper hand.

It looks very much as though Putin isn't making any more headway now, and resorting to just throwing armaments from afar. The tide is turning, unless Zelensky decides to follow BrianVkovsky's advice at the last minute, and go for the tummy tickle.

The rebuilding contractors will be busy lining their coffers soon enough.

 

[Bury the Trash]

BrianVkovsky

 

[czechmate]

I would have thought it most likely giving an increasingly bogged down Putin a way out. He can withdraw (with his tail between his legs and a much weakened army) claiming he has achieved his goal, whilst Ukraine are in the same position, politically anyway, that they were previously, when they had weren't going to be admitted to NATO in the foreseeable future anyway.

Whether the Ukrainians cede the breakaway regions and Crimea will be of interest, or push them back to the original border while they have the upper hand.

It looks very much as though Putin isn't making any more headway now, and resorting to just throwing armaments from afar. The tide is turning, unless Zelensky decides to follow BrianVkovsky's advice at the last minute, and go for the tummy tickle.

The rebuilding contractors will be busy lining their coffers soon enough.

Would anyone ?

 

[jendan]

I heard Zelenskiy say, Ukraine would not join NATO. He did not say, it would not join the EU.
Putin is personally fukkkkkd in any case. Russia economically is pushed back a hundred years. The Russian military, is now exposed as a busted flush. Germany is buying F35’s.
Looks to me like Russia won’t be in a position to tell any country what to do, for a very long time indeed.

Whats stopping Putin just turning the gas off?