Issue with Title Plan

Discussion in 'Tenant Farming, Subsidies, BPS & Legal Issues' started by AtchinTan, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. AtchinTan

    AtchinTan New Member

    I have recently purchased some agricultural land in Wakefield, South Yorkshire. The site is served by a private access road build by Yorkshire Water Limited on land owned by the people who’s land it crosses. Adjacent fields served by the same road show the respective portion of the road included within their title however the land we purchased fails to show the section of road within the title, or for that matter any other title. The land was sold and included the deed of grant of easement signed by previous owners of the land allowing Yorkshire Water to build the road on that portion of land and in turn giving the owner the right to use it.

    Does the deed of grant of easement prove that the land under the road belongs to the same land in the title I purchased and can I petition the Land Registry to amend the title document to reflect this.

    Regards
    Declan
     
  2. chipchap

    chipchap Member

    Location:
    South Shropshire
    If your conveyancer was any good they would have sorted it out before you signed the legal transfer.
     
    Dry Rot likes this.
  3. Exfarmer

    Exfarmer Member

    Location:
    Bury St Edmunds
    The road will belong to the people who own it. This does not mean you do not have full rights to pass over it.
    Your predessor may not have included this road in the sale, or it may be that the Land Registry has failed to include it.
    The ending of title deeds has thrown up a huge number of anomalies and the truth is that many solicitors have not a clue either.
     
  4. Still Farming

    Still Farming Member

    Location:
    Glamorgan Wales
    Should be in your Solicitor's searches.
    Deed of Easement is for utility company to access and travel over most probably and a plan edged in red and these other areas colour marked out also.
    Maybe contact the utility land agents to request copy easements and any covenant contained within.
    The owner" if freehold", is on title most likely as the landowner you are buying off.
     
  5. AtchinTan

    AtchinTan New Member

    Sorry I may not of explained clearly the deed of easment says I own the land and shows a plan outlining the entire field, plus the road, whereas the title to the land outlines everything except the road. The deed of easment references the title number shown on my plan.

    Basically the utility compan are under the impression the land is inculded on the title plan, whereas it doesn’t show up. Neighbouring properties all own their respective length of the road.

    The deed of easment was signed in 2011.
     
  6. Still Farming

    Still Farming Member

    Location:
    Glamorgan Wales
    Unless mentioned or cross referenced maybe ?
    Your Solicitor should know what is what unless a separate title for track ?
    Ask utility Land Agents or Estates dept.also an see what their records say.
     
  7. Dry Rot

    Dry Rot Member

    Location:
    Scotland
    I put a slightly similar question to my solicitor who, to paraphrase, said, "Tough".

    I contacted the Law Society who told me to go back to my solicitor and tell him to sort it out, adding, "That's why you use a solicitor". In fact, some doubt remained so my solicitor took out an insurance policy to cover the possibility of legal wrangling in the future, should that occur.

    In short, at the end of the day solicitors charge a big fee. Make them work for it.
     
    Nearly, alex04w and Still Farming like this.
  8. Still Farming

    Still Farming Member

    Location:
    Glamorgan Wales
    The land was sold and included the deed of grant of easement signed by previous owners of the land allowing Yorkshire Water to build the road on that portion of land and in turn giving the owner the right to use it.

    This bit you quoted about makes me think they own it and you /owner got easement to use it ?
     
  9. AtchinTan

    AtchinTan New Member

    The deed of easement says that I own the land and Yorkshire water must build a road which I am then allowed to use for my own purposes.

    Yorkshire water plans show the land being part of my property and included within my title to which it refers numerous times. The easement is referenced within the title document.

    For example it says in the title that Yorkshire water a permitted to use the land for a road, then on the title plan the land to which it says Yorkshire water are permitted to use is not included.
     
  10. Still Farming

    Still Farming Member

    Location:
    Glamorgan Wales
    Strange.
    Maybe a cock up or one pre dates another etc.
     
  11. AtchinTan

    AtchinTan New Member

    Would I be correct in thinking that in order for the deed of easement to be included in the title, someone at The Land Registry has reviewed, If only at a glance, and then included it within the official copy of the title.

    Therefore having checked that the strip of land in question isn’t currently registered within another title. (Which it isn’t)

    Would this be sufficient evidence to argue that the land does indeed belong to me and have the title amended to reflect this.
     
  12. Still Farming

    Still Farming Member

    Location:
    Glamorgan Wales
    Not certain , your Solicitor should know or the people you bought off Solictor and the utilities Estates land agents and their Solicitors that drew easements up?
    Was it years ago or more recent years ?
    What also do people you bought off say.
     
  13. AtchinTan

    AtchinTan New Member

    I purchase the land very recently, the easement was agreed in 2011 and the land was first registered with the Land Registry in 2002.

    The vendor sold with no title guarentee as they where trustees and had no knowledge of the site. Similarly the owner of the property prior to them, unusually, a firm of solicitors where trustees too. Before this the land was unregistered and still farmed.

    The only information I can find to reinforce my claim is old ordnance survey maps showing the original field boundaries.
     
  14. Exfarmer

    Exfarmer Member

    Location:
    Bury St Edmunds
    It is very common to find title deeds and registration are faulty. My own property does not show half the river bed , which I have every reason to believe is mine. i was assuredwhen I bought the place. However recently discoverredit is not on the deeds. Remember the land registry , specifically state they do not guarantee boundaries.
    I do not think I will quibble it, as I cannot imagine any future owner having any concern and it is no benefit to me .
    A road is a sifferent matter as it is your access
     
  15. AtchinTan

    AtchinTan New Member

    Is there a potential claim for possessory title or even adverse possession, as the claim to ownership is unlikely to be challenged as the land benefits nobody else.

    In relation to your comment about potentially owning half of a river bed, I have previously worked for the Environment Agency, most property owners we dealt with alongside rivers do indeed own to the centre of the watercourse under riparian rights of ownership within common law.
     
  16. Lazy Sod

    Lazy Sod Member

    Location:
    Warminster
    The boundary between my paddocks and the neighbouring farm consists of fully mature hawthorn bushes. My paddocks were originally part of that farm, until sold to a developer.

    Some years ago, before he died, I asked the farmer whether the hedge was his or mine. He said that it was mine and that he made sure that the deeds made that clear, as then he wouldn't have to maintain it.

    The map in the deeds does not have the usual tees on the boundary line which would indicate ownership. I maintain that the hedge cannot possibly belong to me as the barbed wire is nailed, on his side, to the trunks of the hawthorns.

    This lazy practice is a sure sign of sh!thole farming.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  17. "Does the deed of grant of easement prove that the land under the road belongs to the same land in the title I purchased and can I petition the Land Registry to amend the title document to reflect this."

    The first step is to ask the solicitor who conveyed it for you. Land law is fairly complicated and it is very fact sensitive so you really do need to go back to the person who should know best. If you are not satisfied with the response then you can always get a second legal opinion.
    I hope that helps you.
     
  18. Nearly

    Nearly Member

    Location:
    North of York
    I'd have thought there's no chance of claim by adverse posession as YW will have accessed the track and you can't prove the history.
    Solicitor has fecked up.

    I'm more concerned that you think Wakefield is in the Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire. :(
     

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