It's not a cost of living crisis, it's the solution to the climate crisis

[Kiwi Pete]

TBH the first step is realisation that government isn't going to help us, isn't going to provide cheap energy, is going to tax us and doesn't care - to the extent they are creating ways for others to profit from our situation.

It's not as though they haven't done the same thing before with markets & regulation.

"Sounds like a conspiracy theory" to have any belief in government whatsoever

...there is so much evidence that we "can't win, can't break even, can't get outta the game" that we really ought to look at this,,, soon...

we are on life-support systems yet pretend it's going to never run out of puff

 

[Dave645]

...there is so much evidence that we "can't win, can't break even, can't get outta the game" that we really ought to look at this,,, soon...

we are on life-support systems yet pretend it's going to never run out of puff

It’s funny this was done a long time ago yet still manages to be close to reality.

 

[som farmer]

the first step is to realise that we have to accept responsibility for our own lives,
how wisely, or unwisely they spend their money, time etc
each time 'something' goes tits up, its the guvs fault, and the guv has to do 'something'.
The decadent west, is generally up to its neck, in the shithole, and still sinking deeper.
Everything was running just about all right, until somethings, completely unexpected, and out of any guvs control, happened, covid, energy crisis and war.

Its easy to see the centre of manufacturing, moving from the west to the east, those growing economies have one advantage, with which, the west cannot compete, their populations have a much lower expectation of life, for them, our 'lifestyle' is shear luxury, while for us, its becoming a millstone for many.

Consumer, and guv debt, is at record levels, guv debt, one way or another, will/has to be paid back, consumer debt, not sure it can be repaid, its too great a figure. This is where self responsibility has to come in, consumers here, expect to much, holidays, cars, mobiles etc etc, are now considered to be 'necessary', and rank higher than energy, food and housing, wherein reality, those last 3 are the most important.

There is a recession on its way, l think its non avoidable, and its going to be horrendous for many, especially those with debt, and the lower paid, £10 hr, simply doesn't pay the bills.
That is what could/will happen, but its how we get ourselves out of recession, that is the bigger problem. We will emerge from it, perhaps to a different world order, the east may have overtaken the west. That will be a shock for many, but it will mean a big change in lifestyle for many, the money they were used to having, will not be available.

l also think its going to be a big change for farmers, food security will become more important, a reduced lifestyle here, means less goods to export, less money to import. We know, that food prices will rise, far better than any in the guv, perhaps even more than the major retailers, we know from our inputs, what end price will have to be. Coupled with less imported foods, we shall be more price setters, than takers, we have cut our costs to the bone, with input rising, with no output rise, we simply will stop growing/producing that product, we couldn't afford to.

Brexit is a very contentious subject, but if we look at the EU, consensus, is very hard to see in anything, negotiations are required to achieve agreement, which is slow, the replacing of energy, is going to be difficult, esp in a deep recession. History will probably say brexit was the right move, in so much, as we are moving towards trading, with the expanding economies of the east, rather than the declining economy of the EU.

One things for certain, we can do, sweet f### all about it, but we produce products, they simply cannot survive without, whether they can afford to buy it, is a completely different matter.

 

[flywheel]

Strange how the media & the elk decide agriculture is bad for environment but haven't got a clue as how to feed the ever expanding human race. Food costs money to make yet producers only get a fraction of the foods real value. That is the real problem & with our input costs going through the roof we can only go so long till either inputs drop in price & are available to us or food to the masses rocket in price & we get a viable return.

 

[Terrier]

I thought it was almost universally accepted that we face a climate crisis.
The only way to address this is to wean ourselves off fossil fuels and spend more money on sustainably produced food rather 'stuff' that wastes resources.
There now seems to be a universal call to stop the best way of achieving this, high food, fuel and energy prices.

I'm confused.

As a society can we afford to be fussy? The answer a couple of years ago was we probably could, but now we can’t. The environment unfortunately picks up the tab.

 

[DrWazzock]

I do the shopping now. I went through the till receipt and 1 kg carrots are 43p. Two rump steaks as our weekend treat £9.90 for two. A bread loaf £1.20. A large free range chicken that will last us 3 days £6.
Yet people are still jetting off abroad or eating out at £25 a head or ordering in takeaways that start at £10 each.
It’s ridiculous really to claim food is too expensive when you consider the wider context and the mark up added by the hospitality industry.

 

[DrWazzock]

And there’s a story on the BBC about how a family of 14 is tackling the cost of living crisis.
I give up really.

 

[DaveGrohl]

You're supposed to be confused .

That's the whole point of "them" feeding "you" drivel for most of your lifetime, it is designed to create this concept that "the experts will fix it" and/or "they'll come up with some technologies to solve the energy crisis / all the other crises created so far"

try this one on, when you have time

basically, to achieve the fairytale "net zero" then we need to be redirecting almost all of the "fossil" energy (don't get me started on the term) towards creating and constructing and mining and building alternative energy plants - not traipsing about the county delivering tups or going up north to see Aunty Colleen

The other thing is we need to reduce consumption, or reduce the numbers of high-consumers, and that's where stealing your health comes into it (remember my comment on who owns GM-contaminated crops? Ask yourself who now owns your health, and you get a biscuit for the correct answer - which is primarily why I sat this round out).

All told, the concept that "something will come along to save the day" is incredibly naive because we already did that - and instead of starving ½ a billion, centuries ago, we now get to watch billions die from famine, pandemics, and limited wars.

You may also note the picking-off of various agricultural sectors or at least restricting them, it really isn't difficult to weaponise most everything if the intent is to do so.

@Kiwi Pete I’ve started watching this, really quite interesting so far. Good to see someone attempting to quantify the sheer scale of energy that would be required to even start to farm in these silly indoor farm factories. The comment about Singapore on 32 mins gives an idea about how nonsensical all of this absurd energy use is/would be.

It’s clear from what I’ve seen so far that no one has actually stopped to do any figures and ask themselves whether any of this is a good idea. But then, I think we knew that already, or most on here can certainly feel it in our bones before doing any figures.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

And there’s a story on the BBC about how a family of 14 is tackling the cost of living crisis.
I give up really.

That's a lot of tackling. Poor mother

 

[Kiwi Pete]

@Kiwi Pete I’ve started watching this, really quite interesting so far. Good to see someone attempting to quantify the sheer scale of energy that would be required to even start to farm in these silly indoor farm factories. The comment about Singapore on 32 mins gives an idea about how nonsensical all of this absurd energy use is/would be.

It’s clear from what I’ve seen so far that no one has actually stopped to do any figures and ask themselves whether any of this is a good idea. But then, I think we knew that already, or most on here can certainly feel it in our bones before doing any figures.

I take most modelling with a grain of salt, but it does give a bit of perspective on your OP

 

[Fubar]

I thought it was almost universally accepted that we face a climate crisis.
The only way to address this is to wean ourselves off fossil fuels and spend more money on sustainably produced food rather 'stuff' that wastes resources.
There now seems to be a universal call to stop the best way of achieving this, high food, fuel and energy prices.

I'm confused.

This all day long.
Govt tells us to cut down our emissions but want us all to start commuting again and stop wfh. They're now trying to sort out the aviation problems so we can all fly around the world again.
Boris wants Biden to reduce the biofuel mandate thus increasing the reliance on fossil fuels.
Reporters Interviewing joe public about the energy increases...One now has to turn off her lights when she leaves the room. One has to put on a jumper in the house because heating is too expensive. Another fat git had to walk into town because of he couldn't afford the petrol. All things that would have been done anyway 60 years ago.

We've all taken cheap energy for granted.

 

[som farmer]

And there’s a story on the BBC about how a family of 14 is tackling the cost of living crisis.
I give up really.

good case for bulk buying !
we used to sell a lot of meat for the freezer, had a good solid group of customers, till the kids left home, now neither kids nor their parents want it, other than small 'bits'. Freezers are now to small for any bulk. With 1 exception, sausages, making 2 pigs this week into sausages, nobody will want a big pack, but we will quickly run out. Apart from they are lovely, the other comment, is they fill you up quickly, double the price of shop crap, need a third of the amount, to fill you up.
And that is the problem with 'cheap' food products, they are bulked up, with addictive spices, and cheap filler, that leave you hungry after an hour, or so. The only winners, have been the greedy s/mkts. Now we are moving into a recession, and ordinary, and food, inflation is going up, rapidly, how will those greedy barstewards react ? Is it to much to ask, that they trim their profits a bit ? They will be plenty of hot air, about how they are, but l very much doubt their profit margins will fall.
We will, as farmers, take all the blame, as per usual, the retailers will say, 'we have to pay the farmers more, its not our fault'. Well, of course they do, we cannot produce it, for what they want to pay.
And yet, the food costs, could so easily be reduced, for the consumer, if only someone taught them how to cook, from scratch. Not only food costs, health would improve, especially kids health, it cannot be good, to eat that processed crap.
Few years ago, got dragged into aldi's, queuing up to pay, family in front, had a load of spuds, clean and nicely packed, pointed out to the chap, just up the road, sign saying, spuds £5 25kg, about a quarter price, of his, his reply, 'couldn't do that, they would be to dirty'. How can you alter that view point.

 

[DaveGrohl]

I take most modelling with a grain of salt, but it does give a bit of perspective on your OP

Absolutely. There's some good snippets in the Q&A after too.

 

[wanton dwarf]

I thought it was almost universally accepted that we face a climate crisis.
The only way to address this is to wean ourselves off fossil fuels and spend more money on sustainably produced food rather 'stuff' that wastes resources.
There now seems to be a universal call to stop the best way of achieving this, high food, fuel and energy prices.

I'm confused.

Energy prices under pin every human activity.

Increasing energy prices means everything gets more expensive.

Ultimately that means the poorest will begin to starve which increases prices more. Quality of life will decrease - less health care because energy prices, less ability to get to health care because cannot afford a car, less ability to get food because cannot afford a car, spread diseases because using public transport.

High energy prices is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. In an economy which depends totally on the usage of electricity to do most education, maintenance, communications .. what do you think is going to happen ? Less or more productivity ?


Energy prices should be kept as low as possible.

 

[kiwi pom]

I do the shopping now. I went through the till receipt and 1 kg carrots are 43p. Two rump steaks as our weekend treat £9.90 for two. A bread loaf £1.20. A large free range chicken that will last us 3 days £6.
Yet people are still jetting off abroad or eating out at £25 a head or ordering in takeaways that start at £10 each.
It’s ridiculous really to claim food is too expensive when you consider the wider context and the mark up added by the hospitality industry.

I don't know the answer to this but are the people spending on holidays, take outs and god knows what else the same people as those struggling?
The UK has a lot of people in it, some very rich, some very poor and a few in the middle, all have different ways of living, different expectations etc.
Its possible to have a cost of living crisis and have a lot of well off people doing just fine, at the same time?
I think so.

 

[wanton dwarf]

I don't know the answer to this but are the people spending on holidays, take outs and god knows what else the same people as those struggling?
The UK has a lot of people in it, some very rich, some very poor and a few in the middle, all have different ways of living, different expectations etc.
Its possible to have a cost of living crisis and have a lot of well off people doing just fine, at the same time?
I think so.

I don't think people realise what is possible.

I used to use Public Transport for years, didn't have a car and walked to get everything. Including to work - I lived in a big city.

Eventually I rented a car - the time I saved in getting to work/home quicker paid for the car and more. I could earn 2 hours more money a day with a car easily - didn't get tired, didn't get wet/cold/hot, didn't get mugged, got everywhere on time. I could get food, healthcare AND stay safe in the car. It was a LOT cheaper, safer and healthier to have the car.

The same is true for eating out or microwave meals, if you can work an extra hour at £15+ a day because you don't need to make food that pays for faster meals AND enables time with the rest of the family.

 

[kiwi pom]

I don't think people realise what is possible.

I used to use Public Transport for years, didn't have a car and walked to get everything. Including to work - I lived in a big city.

Eventually I rented a car - the time I saved in getting to work/home quicker paid for the car and more. I could earn 2 hours more money a day with a car easily - didn't get tired, didn't get wet/cold/hot, didn't get mugged, got everywhere on time. I could get food, healthcare AND stay safe in the car. It was a LOT cheaper, safer and healthier to have the car.

The same is true for eating out or microwave meals, if you can work an extra hour at £15+ a day because you don't need to make food that pays for faster meals AND enables time with the rest of the family.

I mentioned the importance of good transport on a similar thread and got laughed about but I agree with you.
A mate used to laugh at me for cutting firewood on the weekend, instead of doing a call back at work like he did. The extra money would pay for a load of wood to be delivered but he got called lazy for not doing his own.

We've gone a little the other way with things like take out and work hours. Just one of us working full time but the other cooks from scratch, makes sure all the bills are as cheap as possible, no paid childcare etc,
We'd probably be better off financially with the two of us fulltime even if it meant child care and take outs but you do lose that family time.
Hard to know what's right.

 

[wanton dwarf]

I mentioned the importance of good transport on a similar thread and got laughed about but I agree with you.
A mate used to laugh at me for cutting firewood on the weekend, instead of doing a call back at work like he did. The extra money would pay for a load of wood to be delivered but he got called lazy for not doing his own.

We've gone a little the other way with things like take out and work hours. Just one of us working full time but the other cooks from scratch, makes sure all the bills are as cheap as possible, no paid childcare etc,
We'd probably be better off financially with the two of us fulltime even if it meant child care and take outs but you do lose that family time.
Hard to know what's right.

Just a financial calculation. Can you use technology to save time ? That time could be used for anything, including earning money or enhancing your quality of life.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Energy prices under pin every human activity.

Increasing energy prices means everything gets more expensive.

Ultimately that means the poorest will begin to starve which increases prices more. Quality of life will decrease - less health care because energy prices, less ability to get to health care because cannot afford a car, less ability to get food because cannot afford a car, spread diseases because using public transport.

High energy prices is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. In an economy which depends totally on the usage of electricity to do most education, maintenance, communications .. what do you think is going to happen ? Less or more productivity ?


Energy prices should be kept as low as possible.

I was deliberately trying to avoid the issue of the dire consequences of high energy costs on hard working families and focusing on the fact that the effect of high food, fuel and energy will produce the environmental actions that people say they want while nobody [except maybe NZ] are actually creating policies that might achieve it.

Just a financial calculation. Can you use technology to save time ? That time could be used for anything, including earning money or enhancing your quality of life.

Imagine if [a very big if] everything could be properly taxed so that it covered the environmental cost of its creation and use. It would become "just a financial calculation" as to whether you can afford to make the choices that previously the environment couldn't.
The world doesn't need increased productivity, it needs to be sustainable. It is the wealthy and in power than find growth essential.
We live in a perverse world that is driven by growth and too many people feel the need to buy everything and work all the time to pay for it. The more you work, the more you spend to save time. It's a vicious circle.
People don't want to do manual jobs but pay to go to a gym after being at a desk all day.

It is all driven by big business.

I can't see any government ever implementing a policy to change this but the current 'cost of living crisis' will, given enough time, address these issues and make people happier with less.

 

[wanton dwarf]

I was deliberately trying to avoid the issue of the dire consequences of high energy costs on hard working families and focusing on the fact that the effect of high food, fuel and energy will produce the environmental actions that people say they want while nobody [except maybe NZ] are actually creating policies that might achieve it.




Imagine if [a very big if] everything could be properly taxed so that it covered the environmental cost of its creation and use. It would become "just a financial calculation" as to whether you can afford to make the choices that previously the environment couldn't.
The world doesn't need increased productivity, it needs to be sustainable. It is the wealthy and in power than find growth essential.
We live in a perverse world that is driven by growth and too many people feel the need to buy everything and work all the time to pay for it. The more you work, the more you spend to save time. It's a vicious circle.
People don't want to do manual jobs but pay to go to a gym after being at a desk all day.

It is all driven by big business.

I can't see any government ever implementing a policy to change this but the current 'cost of living crisis' will, given enough time, address these issues and make people happier with less.

In a perfect world according to you.

Not noticed the Ukraine War ? Or the fact Ukraine grew Oilseed Rape with UK banned presiticides ? Were Ukraines products banned on import ?

"Properly Taxxed" does that include Monaco ? Luxemburg ? Switzerland ? Camon Islands ? Isle of White ?

The world DOES need increased productivity. The world also needs those who advocate "Recycling" to actually do it rather than talking about it and running away with large amounts of money having burnt or dumped the "Recycling".

I find it VERY disturbing that you even think Growth is not essential - actually it is appalling. Take GPS in tractors, I know this makes the job far less tiring and more productive not just in utilisation of the machine but also of time. Time to ensure everything else is running better.

Why use false generic statements such as "The more you work, the more you spend to save time. It's a vicious circle." ? If you spent no money and you relied on yourself for everything you'd have very, very little (Not even matches) and would die as a result of any minor accident. Probably the first cold weather would kill most people.

You don't go to the gym because you've sat at a desk all day. You go to the gym for social and health reasons. But you don't have to go at all.

Your last statement is worthy of a good globalist slave - whilst you are accepting your lot, the rich are in Monaco pissing your small resources up the wall of their £100+ million yacht whilst paying no taxes at all.