Javid promises BPS at same level for 2020

[E_B]

I see some progressive farmers want subs removed because it will 'balance out the free market', reducing input costs such as rent. And yet the worst planting season in living memory has yet to shift commodity prices beyond a negligable amount, despite such massive contraction on the domestic supply side. Oh that's right, because farming doesn't operate in a free market and that's why subsidies were introduced in the first place.

If you want rents and land prices to come down, you should lobby the Treasury to alter IHT rules. But then every farmer who owns land would be worth bugger all, the banks would call in, and you wouldn't be able to afford the latest German tractor neither on borrowed money nor the paltry return from commodity crops.

 

[ajd132]

I see some progressive farmers want subs removed because it will 'balance out the free market', reducing input costs such as rent. And yet the worst planting season in living memory has yet to shift commodity prices beyond a negligable amount, despite such massive contraction on the domestic supply side. Oh that's right, because farming doesn't operate in a free market and that's why subsidies were introduced in the first place.

If you want rents and land prices to come down, you should lobby the Treasury to alter IHT rules. But then every farmer who owns land would be worth bugger all, the banks would call in, and you wouldn't be able to afford the latest German tractor neither on borrowed money nor the paltry return from commodity crops.

On the flip side if land prices dropped then a viable ROI on growing commodities on farmland then may be realised?

 

[teslacoils]

On the flip side if land prices dropped then a viable ROI on growing commodities on farmland then may be realised?

If house prices dropped to link more fairly to average earnings then surely that would be better in the long run?

Too much short term pain.

I'd rather see land prices remain strong , but food prices at the farm gate return to a more sensible percentage of household expenditure. Rent control and house price reductions would be more beneficial surely?

Won't
Happen
Though
Will
It?

 

[ajd132]

If house prices dropped to link more fairly to average earnings then surely that would be better in the long run?

Too much short term pain.

I'd rather see land prices remain strong , but food prices at the farm gate return to a more sensible percentage of household expenditure. Rent control and house price reductions would be more beneficial surely?

Won't
Happen
Though
Will
It?

What a disaster this whole thing is!

 

[warksfarmer]

I certainly don’t fall into that category, but I believe the current system is flawed too. It can’t be right that a ‘small’ farmer with 1000ac is drawing the best part of £100k for doing so, then using that money to buy more land to qualify for more.
Likewise nobody should be getting a large payment just because their father worked hard and built up a decent landholding, which they sit back and milk for sub.

I have no doubt that something has to change. The current system is keeping to many affluent slipper farmers in comfort, whether as historical landlords or semi-retired owner occupiers.

What the answer is, I don’t know. Stopping sub will send a lot to the wall, however ‘efficient’ they are. Headage payments will just encourage overstocking with poor stock (I could easily double numbers up here with Welsh ewes if that system came in again). Moving support to trees and rewinding schemes just removes productive land from the system, permanently (drainage systems beyond repair within a few years and no way back for land once classified as ‘habitat’).

£100k will buy you 4.5 acres of bare land around here. Hardly expansion is it and as for earning more subsidy from it, yep another £350. Great!

 

[Banana Bar]

£100k will buy you 4.5 acres of bare land around here. Hardly expansion is it and as for earning more subsidy from it, yep another £350. Great!

If my land was worth 22k / acre I would be selling today. Why would you keep it?

 

[warksfarmer]

The people that want the subsidy’s gone are the contract farmers because they think they’ll expand further. These boys are the vision of the large scale factory farm ideology which is the polar opposite of where the industry needs to be. What they forget is they won’t have any contract farming customers because land will be sold or put into environmental schemes meaning they cant farm it anyway.

The future is reduced input (almost organic if not fully organic) farming for UK produce at higher prices. The cheap stuff will be imported. This was decided years ago and is now happening.

We were all told 20 years ago to diversify. If you didn’t do it for whatever reason then I’m afraid you’ve been very very silly. If you want to farm then you need to be able to prop it up with money from elsewhere. On paper you shouldn’t do it but so many diversification’s can’t work without the farm in the background so it’s time to subsidise yourself to break even point to allow your entire ‘rural business’ to survive.

 

[warksfarmer]

If my land was worth 22k / acre I would be selling today. Why would you keep it?

Because you’ll loose 50% in tax for starters but also because for future generations it’ll be worth more than £22k/acre.

 

[ajd132]

The people that want the subsidy’s gone are the contract farmers because they think they’ll expand further. These boys are the vision of the large scale factory farm ideology which is the polar opposite of where the industry needs to be. What they forget is they won’t have any contract farming customers because land will be sold or put into environmental schemes meaning they cant farm it anyway.

The future is reduced input (almost organic if not fully organic) farming for UK produce at higher prices. The cheap stuff will be imported. This was decided years ago and is now happening.

We were all told 20 years ago to diversify. If you didn’t do it for whatever reason then I’m afraid you’ve been very very silly. If you want to farm then you need to be able to prop it up with money from elsewhere. On paper you shouldn’t do it but so many diversification’s can’t work without the farm in the background so it’s time to subsidise yourself to break even point to allow your entire ‘rural business’ to survive.

A fully working conservation/regenerative farming system should allow production of commodities, money for environmental stuff and most importantly a way to offer numerous diversified income streams from natural capital and eco system services. All as part of the farm system.
Putting a rubbish corner into wild bird mix then trying to get as much yield with as possible with loads of inputs on the rest of the field (like today) won’t work.

 

[warksfarmer]

A fully working conservation/regenerative farming system should allow production of commodities, money for environmental stuff and most importantly a way to offer numerous diversified income streams from natural capital and eco system services. All as part of the farm system.
Putting a rubbish corner into wild bird mix then trying to get as much yield with as possible with loads of inputs on the rest of the field (like today) won’t work.

Why bother when enhanced over wintered stubble pays £177/acre for doing jack shite. 50% of the farm into that, 16% into roots paying £350/acre + irrigation income, 16% into short term key for AD paying £150/acre, 16% into Maize for AD paying £200/ac. There’s no need for a contract farmer and your maximising the land income whilst ticking the boxes to also sell carbon credits outside of agriculture.

If that’s not an option then organic as already mentioned. There isn’t an inbetween if you want to earn a living off your asset.

 

[ajd132]

Why bother when enhanced over wintered stubble pays £177/acre for doing jack shite. 50% of the farm into that, 16% into roots paying £350/acre + irrigation income, 16% into short term key for AD paying £150/acre, 16% into Maize for AD paying £200/ac. There’s no need for a contract farmer and your maximising the land income whilst ticking the boxes to also sell carbon credits outside of agriculture.

If that’s not an option then organic as already mentioned. There isn’t an inbetween if you want to earn a living off your asset.

The land is too heavy here for root crops and there is only limited AD. The whole way we use and land is going to change rapidly over the next ten years. You are looking at it from a current perspective.
I do think we sort of agree but getting there somewhat differently.

 

[ajd132]

Why bother when enhanced over wintered stubble pays £177/acre for doing jack shite. 50% of the farm into that, 16% into roots paying £350/acre + irrigation income, 16% into short term key for AD paying £150/acre, 16% into Maize for AD paying £200/ac. There’s no need for a contract farmer and your maximising the land income whilst ticking the boxes to also sell carbon credits outside of agriculture.

If that’s not an option then organic as already mentioned. There isn’t an inbetween if you want to earn a living off your asset.

And agree being a contract farmer I don’t think it will continue in its current form

 

[warksfarmer]

The land is too heavy here for root crops and there is only limited AD. The whole way we use and land is going to change rapidly over the next ten years. You are looking at it from a current perspective.
I do think we sort of agree but getting there somewhat differently.

You need to put an AD plant in then and you’ll have security for 20 years.

I can’t recall who it was but talking to somebody on here I think and they’d put in 2000ac into enhanced overwintered stubble out of a 4000ac business. Guaranteed them £350k per year for the duration of the agreement.

 

[ollie989898]

Gracious man, the UK voted to leave the EU and CAP. So curtailing food imports and less regulation are hardly on the agenda now. I do wonder at times. But I may well be wrong, time will tell. I may have to eat my filo pastry hat at some stage.

Why would there be more regulation following a departure from the EU?

 

[ollie989898]

Whether direct subs go or not, it is clear that imports will not be curbed (Boris & his buddies positively embrace reduced tariff imports), nor will regulations & paperwork reduce.

Policy is decided by career politicians who churn out soundbites to egg the proletariat on, as was clearly demonstrated by all sides in the recent GE campaign. Keep the plebs happy and they will keep their grip on the gravy train, nothing else matters to them, any of them.

Disregarding any strategic long term planning, food can be imported cheaply and the urbancentric population appear to like the ideas promoted by Packham, Monbiot, etc, so that is the path we are on.

We all know it will end in tears at some point, but I suspect a great deal of damage will be done across our industry before that day comes.

With your unfaltering belief in the above, how can you possibly be in favour of direct subsidisation? Surely, in the scenario you envisage, it would make no difference and you are in effect only farming for the envelope or to enrich the coffers of huge national companies?

This does not strike me as a sustainable career path?

 

[ajd132]

You need to put an AD plant in then and you’ll have security for 20 years.

I can’t recall who it was but talking to somebody on here I think and they’d put in 2000ac into enhanced overwintered stubble out of a 4000ac business. Guaranteed them £350k per year for the duration of the agreement.

I think the time to put an AD plant in was ten years ago. We would also never get planning for one around here (people have tried).

 

[Banana Bar]

Because you’ll loose 50% in tax for starters but also because for future generations it’ll be worth more than £22k/acre.

Sell yours for 22k and buy mine for 15k, I’ll then double my acreage buying at 7.5k.

 

[farmerm]

Area payments have nothing to do with food supply. Every land owner in the country could claim payments and not produce food.

But that isn’t what happens in the real world... area payments keep farm businesses alive and for most farmers the concept of not producing is the same as the concept of not breathing.

 

[Bossfarmer]

The whole industry is stifled by the ‘magic money’. We need huge reform that farmers need to get together and lead. There will be casualties.

i think you meant to say the whole industry is kept afloat by the magic money, casualties is putting it very mildly the industry would be dead competing with a subsidised EU on subsidised world markets, margins are already very small even with support

 

[farmerm]

On the flip side if land prices dropped then a viable ROI on growing commodities on farmland then may be realised?

If you inherit land the ROI doesn’t look half as bad, the money invested in the land is only worth its value after tax is paid on its sale, an amount a lot less than the market value.