JD459 knotter trouble

[Dave W]

JD 459 won’t knot. I’ve got as far as establishing the twine isn’t being caught in twine holder. Needle comes up and places twine in the disc grove the needle is on the down stroke and the eye is past the twine holder before the disc starts to rotate. So there’s no twine in the disc by the time it starts turning.
I can’t see how to adjust the timing in that respect

Just watched a you tube video and it clearly shoved twine disc starting to rotate on the last inch of the needle upstroke. Mine doesn’t turn until needle is 2” down on the downstroke and past twine holder

 

[mengeleguru]

Probably the main timing is wrong.
Sounds like the needles are late.
Does it do it on both knotters ?

 

[Dave W]

Probably the main timing is wrong.
Sounds like the needles are late.
Does it do it on both knotters ?

Yes both the same although right hand is occasionally making a knot.
I’ve looked at the main bevel timing gear. That only alters the relationship between the plunger and needle timing.
I can’t see how to alter needle to knotters timing

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

To alter the advance and retard of the twine disc holder on most balers you slacken nut A, and pull the worm gear B down a little, it on a fine taper, rotate twine holder to correct place, take slack up in gear backlash, and retighten nut A,
There is pins to hold gears to shaft at both C & C, these can partly shear putting timing out, but find it hard to believe both knotters have done it at same time.
The timing cannot be out on needles, or the stop dog would break main shear bolt, and the needle drive is after the twine disc drive, not before, so I think main drive line is timed up correctly.
Also what can effect retarded twine disc and bill hook timing is wear on drive gears, and backlash between crown kidney drive and pinion there is often a tapered shim, you undo and rotate to take up backlash, however if gear is badly worn, it will need replacing.

Really a a few photos of it would give better explanation of the problem than text

 

[Dave W]

To alter the advance and retard of the twine disc holder on most balers you slacken nut A, and pull the worm gear B down a little, it on a fine taper, rotate twine holder to correct place, take slack up in gear backlash, and retighten nut A,
There is pins to hold gears to shaft at both C & C, these can partly shear putting timing out, but find it hard to believe both knotters have done it at same time.
The timing cannot be out on needles, or the stop dog would break main shear bolt, and the needle drive is after the twine disc drive, not before, so I think main drive line is timed up correctly.
Also what can effect retarded twine disc and bill hook timing is wear on drive gears, and backlash between crown kidney drive and pinion there is often a tapered shim, you undo and rotate to take up backlash, however if gear is badly worn, it will need replacing.

Really a a few photos of it would give better explanation of the problem than text

I understand what you mean by seeing the gap in the disc but I don’t think it’s anything to do with that.

Needle comes up and lays string in the disc gap. Then needle starts to go down and pulls steering out of the gap before the disc then starts to turn.

From what I understand the disc should start to turn while the needle is still on the last part of its up stroke.

 

[Dave W]

I’m tempted to move this arm round one spline on the shaft as that’s the only thing I can see that will alter the relationship between the needles and knotters.
I’d have a lot more confidence if it were a finer spline

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

I understand what you mean by seeing the gap in the disc but I don’t think it’s anything to do with that.

Needle comes up and lays string in the disc gap. Then needle starts to go down and pulls steering out of the gap before the disc then starts to turn.

From what I understand the disc should start to turn while the needle is still on the last part of its up stroke.

Yes that is correct,
The only other thing I can think of then is, the shaft keys for the kidney gear have wear on them, is would keep the needle timing right, but retard the knotter timing

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

I’m tempted to move this arm round one spline on the shaft as that’s the only thing I can see that will alter the relationship between the needles and knotters.
I’d have a lot more confidence if it were a finer spline

No doing that will throw the needle to ram timing out and the stop dog will stop the ram

 

[Phil P]

Is it leaving a knot in one end of the string on top of the bale? Or is it not doing anything?

 

[Dave W]

Is it leaving a knot in one end of the string on top of the bale? Or is it not doing anything?

Yes one string is making it into the billhook.

I’ve just been comparing photos and I don’t thing the knotters crown when is in the right position when parked

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

Yes one string is making it into the billhook.

That sounds like a tucker finger problem then, any photos on them in parked position, and any cam wear

 

[L P]

Yes that is correct,
The only other thing I can think of then is, the shaft keys for the kidney gear have wear on them, is would keep the needle timing right, but retard the knotter timing

I'd agree with this, your knotters are retarded from needles so not main drive timing causing it. If its not the keyway, check roll pins in knotter bevel gears and make sure needles haven't had a tweak backwards.

 

[Phil P]

Yes one string is making it into the billhook.

I’ve just been comparing photos and I don’t thing the knotters crown when is in the right position when parked

That sounds like a tucker finger problem then, any photos on them in parked position, and any cam wear

Beet me to it .

Check the tucker fingers, turn it over by hand and watch them come across and guide the string in. Also check they snap back to the correct home position.

 

[Dave W]

SUCCESS!!!!
It was the arm on that splined shaft one spline out.

 

[Phil P]

SUCCESS!!!!
It was the arm on that splined shaft one spline out.

Just double checking your needle to plunger head timing now before you put some straw through it.

Ps, let me know you need the measurement, I’m sure I’ve still got a training manual.

 

[Dave W]

Just double checking your needle to plunger head timing now before you put some straw through it.

Ps, let me know you need the measurement, I’m sure I’ve still got a training manual.

Thank you. I’ve already reset that

 

[yoki]

I’m tempted to move this arm round one spline on the shaft as that’s the only thing I can see that will alter the relationship between the needles and knotters.
I’d have a lot more confidence if it were a finer spline

One spline is 45 degrees!

 

[Dave W]

One spline is 45 degrees!

Yes. Someone been messing before me I think

 

[carbonfibre farmer]

Did you send any pics to Andrew in the end..... he said it was an easy fix..

 

[Dave W]

Did you send any pics to Andrew in the end..... he said it was an easy fix..

No because he wasn’t talking in what I was saying.
like everyone he was saying about adjusting the gap in the twine disc but it was nothing to do with that.